Miriam Pawel, Rethinking Crime, Punishment, and Redemption in California

Michael Burroughs: Hello everyone, we’re going to just take a moment or two for people to filter in and then we will get started. Michael Burroughs: Welcome everyone to tonight’s event rethinking crime punishment and redemption in California. The legacy of the governor’s brown featuring Miriam, pal. Michael Burroughs: My name is Michael burrows and I serve as director of the Cagney Institute of ethics and I’ll be half of the Institute. I want to thank Michael Burroughs: Dr. Miriam Vivian and the CCP public history Institute for serving as lead organizers of tonight’s event.

00:52 - Michael Burroughs: And I also want to thank California humanities for their support of this program tonight which is part of an event series that we are calling humanities beyond bars. Michael Burroughs: Despite high rates of incarceration and California Central Valley at occurred to us that the realities of prison imprisonment and the voices of those incarcerated are often unseen and heard Michael Burroughs: This lack of visibility leads to a lack of understanding regarding the scale of incarceration, and importantly, the life experiences of those incarcerated. Michael Burroughs: So through a series of public events, including tonight’s event, you have to increase this visibility and in turn, understanding of incarceration and history of incarceration in our state and also the human condition of those incarcerated. Michael Burroughs: You’d be a tremendous help to us tonight if you’d be willing to complete a brief survey from California humanities on your experience of this event and I’m going to post this link. Michael Burroughs: In the chat for you now.

01:53 - Michael Burroughs: And if you click on that link, it will take you to the survey, you can have it open and you can complete it anytime Michael Burroughs: We will post the link at the end of the event as well too. But again, that helps us continue to support these events going forward to get feedback and supported this grant that sponsors tonight’s event. Michael Burroughs: With that, thank you again and I’ll turn things over to Dr. Mary and Vivian who will introduce our speaker tonight. Dr. Vivian. Miriam Raub Vivian: Thank you very much. My goal. I’m Miriam Rob Vivian professor and chair of history here at CSU beak and I’m also director of the public history Institute.

02:28 - Miriam Raub Vivian: Whose mission is essentially to explore research collect preserve and disseminate the history of our region to engage students and the community and to provide relevant programming, such as our event this evening. Miriam Raub Vivian: I want to express my thanks to Dr. Michael burrows, Director of the Keighley Institute of ethics and his collaboration with the category Institute on this event with the cow humanities grant, which is, as he mentioned humanities beyond bars. Miriam Raub Vivian: Thank you to Cal humanities for the grant and the public history Institute for its efforts in planning this event. I’d also like to thank the Dean of arts and humanities. Dr. Robert Franks. And of course, our speaker Miriam Powell.

03:21 - Miriam Raub Vivian: Want to say a word about how the event will run after my introduction of our speaker Miriam power will share her Miriam Raub Vivian: Talk and it’ll be followed by a question and answer session with the audience. The Q AMP a function should be there at the bottom of your zoom screen and you can actually begin to Miriam Raub Vivian: post questions as soon as you’d like. And throughout her talk. So don’t hesitate if during the talk of question occurs to you to go ahead and type it in. Miriam Raub Vivian: And we’ll try to get to as many of these as we can, at the end of her talk. Okay, yours will be in the queue with others and I’ll do my best to get to as many as I can.

04:06 - Miriam Raub Vivian: We are very fortunate this evening to have Miriam Powell. Miriam Raub Vivian: And author journalist and independent historian. She is currently a Radcliffe Institute fellow researching income inequality in California. Miriam Raub Vivian: She has focused metric or research and writing on California and was for many years and award winning journalist with the Los Angeles Times. She is also a New York Times contributing op ed writer. Miriam Raub Vivian: Of the many topics. She’s addressed.

One of my favorites is the peach tree adoption program that she in a group of friends are part of 04:41 - Miriam Raub Vivian: This in the organic orchard of David masa masa moto whose fields or southeast of Fresno, and who spoke at CSU be in 2014 as part of the pH is a year long series of events commemorating john Steinbeck’s The Grapes of Wrath in its 75th year Miriam Raub Vivian: With a lyrical writing style. She has authored several books, including the Crusades of save up Cesar Chavez, a biography in 2014 which garnered her the Robert F. Kennedy Book Award and a California Book Award and was a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award Miriam Raub Vivian: In fact, in Miriam Raub Vivian: she shared her research about the famed labor leader at CSU be as part of the pH is 2015 event exploring the 1968 delay know grapes grapes strike. Miriam Raub Vivian: Her latest book, published in Miriam Raub Vivian: Is the Browns of California. The family dynasty that transformed a state and shaped a nation which was awarded a California Book Award and was a finalist for the Los Angeles Times Book Prize Miriam Raub Vivian: It is this research that provides the source for her talk this evening.

We’re delighted to welcome as power back to see us up to share perspective on the two governors brown and to offer insights into their impact on criminal justice policies in California. Miriam Raub Vivian: Welcome this panel. Miriam Pawel: Thank you so much. Miriam Pawel: For thanks to both the Kundalini Institute and the public is three Institute, and I do have a very fun feelings for the Central Valley. Miriam Pawel: Having spent a lot of time. They’re researching my farmworker books in particular. And sorry, not to be there in person, but such are the times we’re in. I’m going to share my screen and Miriam Pawel: Hopefully this will work.

06:54 - Miriam Pawel: Sorry, I did the wrong thing. Why is this not working. Miriam Pawel: Are you seeing my screen now. Miriam Raub Vivian: Yes, we see your screen. Miriam Pawel: Okay, so we’re good. Sorry. It’s my first zoom talk with a PowerPoint. So hopefully everything will go smoothly. From now on, Miriam Pawel: As Dr. Julian said my lot of this talk is drawn from the book that I did about the family that which is it’s a history of California told from for generations of the brown family. The talk tonight we’ll focus on Miriam Pawel: The criminal justice legacies of the two governors, I will try to sort of point out certain themes that unite them certain ways that they changed over time.

07:43 - Miriam Pawel: And, you know, look at the the legacy of 24 years of governing by the Father and Son browns. Miriam Pawel: And the ways in which both their views on criminal justice changed over time and the ways in which our views as a, as a society, and as a state in California changed. Miriam Pawel: I do think it’s it’s very timely, at a time when, when we are all wrestling with Miriam Pawel: So many issues involving the criminal justice system and it’s wonderful that the keg of the Institute and the California humanities is sponsoring this talk. Miriam Pawel: And this in this whole series so going to start very quickly with the roots of the ground family. Miriam Pawel: This is August shock man who is Jerry Brown’s great grandfather.

It is a portrait of him on the land in collusive that he settled on when he crossed the planes in 1852 he was a Russian immigrant 08:36 - Miriam Pawel: He settled on land that became ultimately bought land that was an in called the mountain house, and this is a photo of him at the land of the mountain house and we’ll come back to that at the very end of the story as well. Miriam Pawel: Agha shukman had eight children his youngest daughter was either. She was sort of the outlier in the family, many of the other Miriam Pawel: Siblings all stayed in the collusive area. She left and went to San Francisco. As soon as she could. When she was 18 where she met Ed been Joseph brown Miriam Pawel: Admin Joseph Brad was born in San Francisco, but he was the son of Irish immigrants who had fled Tipperary during the potato famine. Miriam Pawel: And came to California for more opportunity and all of the reasons they California drew so many immigrants, both in and now Miriam Pawel: So admin and Joseph, and Joseph and IDA began their family. They had ultimately for children.

These are there three oldest 09:40 - Miriam Pawel: And the little fellow over on the left, sitting on his father’s shoulder is Edmund Gerald Brown, better known to most of us into the entire world other than his family as Pat Brown. Miriam Pawel: I like this photo because I think it sort of captures the look of someone who was a politician almost from his youngest years he grew up in, in San Francisco went to law High School. He frequently said later on in life that he ran for the Miriam Pawel: President of every club in his high school even the ones in which he was not a member. And that was essentially true he was just running for office for for his whole life. Miriam Pawel: He married his high school sweetheart Bernice lane, who was a very precocious student graduated from law high school and went to the University of California at Berkeley, when she was 14 years old.

10:37 - Miriam Pawel: And cat and Bernice started a family. And here’s a photo of their three oldest children Barbara Symphony and Jerry Miriam Pawel: You, those who remember the intense stare of our formerly former governor may recognize the to me. He looks very much in this photo, as he does in many ways today. Miriam Pawel: Put the reason I included this photo in particular is that this is a photo that Pat Brown used when he ran for the first office that he actually won, which was District Attorney of San Francisco. Miriam Pawel: In 1943 So Jerry was born in 1938 he was five when his father ran for district attorney and was elected, and so he grew up in a home that was full of politics all the time.

11:31 - Miriam Pawel: We talk a lot now about the progressive prosecutor movement Los Angeles just elected the former San Francisco district attorney George gas gun, who was Miriam Pawel: Calls himself. The Godfather, the progressive prosecutor movement, but I would make the case that Pat Brown was actually our first progressive district attorney. Miriam Pawel: And this is not i’m not saying this entirely facetiously because one of the things that Pat Brown did as district attorney that was Miriam Pawel: In some ways, ahead of his time was to focus a lot on the youth of San Francisco and on ways to keep people out of trouble and keep them out of the criminal justice system, as opposed to dealing with them when they were in it and viewing his role as purely one of meeting out punishment. Miriam Pawel: He published a little booklet called youth. Don’t be a chump. Miriam Pawel: This is the cover and the sort of cover letter in it, in which he says is, you can see that you know his office will always be open to the children of San Francisco, you should just walk in and Miriam Pawel: Say that you’re there to see your friend Pat Brown.

Well, the rest of the booklet was sort of a guide to how to stay out of trouble. What were the curfews Miriam Pawel: When you know different policies for for youth to be to stay out of the criminal justice system. It was so popular that there were 270 5000 copies of it published in eight additions. Miriam Pawel: Fat brown also formed a relationship as soon as he was district attorney with Miriam Pawel: Earl Warren and this is a photo from later on in both of their lives when they were on what became an annual hunting trip on the ranch of a friend of Miriam Pawel: Pro Warren’s includes the county. But the reason that Pat went to see him was because Earl Warren when he became District Attorney of Alameda County.

13:33 - Miriam Pawel: inherited an office that had many of the same problems and sort of dysfunction. Miriam Pawel: That Pat Brown inherited when he became San Francisco district attorney. So he went to see Earl Warren for advice. And that was really the beginning of a friendship and a very important relationship that also shaped Miriam Pawel: Then governor future Governor Brown’s views about criminal justice. There’s some wonderful correspondence between the two of them when it know Warren was the Chief Justice Miriam Pawel: In Miriam Pawel: Pat Brown ran for was elected Attorney General California taking on a new kind of roll into broadening his sense of of the criminal justice system in the state. He often said it was the best job that he ever had, because of the, the freedom and the flexibility that it gave in.

14:23 - Miriam Pawel: And meanwhile, a little, little side side show off. Miriam Pawel: From the directly criminal justice related trajectory here. Many people probably remember the Jerry Brown was in the seminary in the desert Seminary in Los Gatos for three and a half years. And there he is in the middle of the front row. Miriam Pawel: He went into Seminary in 1956 when his father’s Attorney General and within their for during the campaign and his father. Miriam Pawel: Wage successfully to be elected governor in 1958 on also just remind people of what a breakthrough.

It was for the Democratic Party Pat Brown led a sweep of the democrats in 1958 15:05 - Miriam Pawel: Which was the first time that they really came to power in the state for many years. Miriam Pawel: We think of California. Now as this incredibly blue state, but in fact Gavin Newsom is only the fifth democrat elected governor in modern times, and to have the other four were named brown and one was recalled so Miriam Pawel: They did. It’s just a good reminder of how times change. And if the politics of the state. Miriam Pawel: He was inaugurated in in Miriam Pawel: His son was allowed to come out of the seminary on its usual to two witnesses folders inauguration, and just another mentioned of either shukman brown Miriam Pawel: Pat’s Mother Jones grandmother, who is there in the picture, who is a really important influence on the thinking of the whole family, both for son her grandchildren. She had was close to Miriam Pawel: To her children. She was involved in the Unitarian Church and she had very strong instilled in her family very strong principles about justice.

16:14 - Miriam Pawel: And and fairness and and racial justice in particular at a time when that was not not not that commonly discussed. So as Governor Pat Brown had an enormous impact on the state in a time when it was building in many ways. And although he was very proud of his role in Miriam Pawel: Promoting the University of California and the water system that was built during his Miriam Pawel: During his governorship he often said when he was asked what his greatest accomplishment, was that it was his appointments to the California Supreme Court. Miriam Pawel: Is very close to judges. He pointed in general. He maintain friendships with them for his entire life. Miriam Pawel: But his impact is particularly great on the California Supreme Court, and here are three of the key figures during that era.

17:05 - Miriam Pawel: Roger trainer who was on the court when Pat Brown became governor but brown elevated him to be chief justice to the court in 1964 Miriam Pawel: And then he appointed by Stanley mosque and Matthew to greener who are renowned tourist and played a really significant role in making California’s Supreme Court into Miriam Pawel: One of the most highly respected courts in the country at that time, it was very progressive the trainer court issue decisions on things like Miriam Pawel: overturning the state’s ban on interracial marriage as in declaring that interracial that the band violated the 14th Amendment of the Constitution decades before the US Supreme Court did that. Miriam Pawel: And also some really pathbreaking decisions on the banning police from using evidence that was obtained a legal illegally. And in general, there were a series of progressive decisions on consumer rights and criminal justice issues. Miriam Pawel: This is kind of a long quote, but I thought it was important to sort of give a sense of, of why the California Supreme Court is so important in terms of being proactive and Miriam Pawel: Just read it, it takes boldness to turn a flashlight upon in Aurora and call out what has what one has seen Like it Sorry about that. Miriam Pawel: At the risk of violent in quality for the benefit of those who have retired from active thought Miriam Pawel: It is easier for record to rationalize that less shock will result if it binds its time and buys it invites a while.

It’ll weeds legislative action to transfer an unfortunate precedent. Miriam Pawel: unceremoniously to the dump from the fading glory in which it has been asking, you can see that justice trainer was also a good writer. But the point of this is that he really shapes the corner to something that is a proactive force. Okay. Miriam Pawel: The other significant issue that Pat Brown conference over the not only over his governorship but over the course of his life, and then also confronts his son and still an important topic in California, which in that is the death penalty and so when Pat Brown was elected. Miriam Pawel: He had as district attorney in San Francisco prosecutor death penalty cases he had qualms about the death penalty, when he became Attorney General and asked for a five year moratorium, which was not did not happen.

19:55 - Miriam Pawel: But when he became governor, he inherited the case of Cal chessmen people. You remember chessmen he was the red light band. It was known as Miriam Pawel: Because he shined a red light in the car of couples who are on lovers lanes and then rob them at gunpoint, and in two cases at least raped women. Miriam Pawel: Because he had taken one of the women from her car into his. He was convicted on a kidnapping charge that was then a capital punishment offense that was was subsequently overturned, but it was the one Miriam Pawel: Crime that you could be convicted of and sent to death row that was do not involve murder. Miriam Pawel: And chessmen both because he had not killed anyone and because he was a very charismatic figure who protested his innocence throughout Miriam Pawel: His trials and all of his time on death row.

He became a real an international symbol for the fight over the death penalty and attracted tremendous support. Miriam Pawel: For his cause from people around the world. He wrote best selling books. He also managed to prolong his case, for I think it was 11 years which nowadays is not anything particularly of record, but at that time was an unusually long time to be on death row. Miriam Pawel: When Pat Brown became governor chessmen had essentially exhausted. Almost all of his appeals and so he was sentenced to die on February 19 1960 Miriam Pawel: Brown had a lot of qualms about this.

He really wanted to find a way to commute his sentence, but he could not do that without the permission of the California Supreme Court. Miriam Pawel: And he knew that he could not get that their approval so you really sort of had no alternatives, the execution was set Miriam Pawel: And at the last minute. He was alone in the governor’s mansion. He had sent his wife and daughter to Squaw Valley for the opening of the 1916 Olympics. Miriam Pawel: And his son, Jerry Brown, who had recently come out of the seminary and left the seminary was student at the University of California, Berkeley called him up and sort of urged him to find a way to spare testaments life and against all of the advice from all of his advisors. Miriam Pawel: Pat Brown granted a 60 day reprieve during which he would ask the legislature to overturn the death penalty, which he knew was a feudal cause Miriam Pawel: This ended up and then Jasmine ended up being executed in May of 1960 Miriam Pawel: This earned brown sort of anger on all sides, the people who are opposed to the death penalty were angry that Jasmine was put to death, the people who were in favor of the death penalty were angry that Brown had Miriam Pawel: drag this out.

He got a reputation for being a tower of Jello and being indecisive, and he felt with some justification that this dog to him for the rest of his career, and they never really overcame the 23:12 - Miriam Pawel: bad feelings and the negative publicity that was generated by the Jasmine case, although he did come back to defeat Richard Nixon and 1962 and when a second term. Miriam Pawel: And then was defeated by Ronald Reagan in 1966 Miriam Pawel: After his time in office. Miriam Pawel: Later. Many years later, I mean the whole issue of the death penalty still preoccupied brown tremendously. He went to visit death row. He talked also to some of the inmates whose cases he had ended up commuting Miriam Pawel: Ultimately, there were 60 prisoners on death. Death Row when he left office, also a reminder of a time when death row was was the prison system in general was a fraction of the size that it is now.

24:05 - Miriam Pawel: He ended up commuting 23 sentences and sentence sentencing resending 36 men to their deaths in the Miriam Pawel: San Quentin at San Quentin. And he wrote this book, with the help of a writer to revisit those cases and to really think through his philosophy about the death penalty. Miriam Pawel: And ultimately comes to the conclusion that it is wrong. Not even primarily on moral grounds, but because it is not effective deterring against punishment. Miriam Pawel: Okay, we’re going to fast forward now to the next brown Miriam Pawel: Ronald Reagan comes in as governor for eight years.

And meanwhile, Jerry Brown graduates from the University of California, Berkeley goes to Yale Law School and returns 24:58 - Miriam Pawel: To California does a clerkship and moves to Los Angeles with the idea of entering politics, just as his father had Miriam Pawel: He runs for the first office if it’s available, which is the Los Angeles County Community College Board from there becomes secretary state in 1970 and a knife and 74 Miriam Pawel: Runs for Governor against a field of quite seasoned experienced democrats wins the primary. This is a scene of him campaigning during that night before campaign. Miriam Pawel: Is elected. This is the post Watergate generation, he’s elected. He’s becomes a national symbol in some ways of the new young generation. He’s 36 years old. Miriam Pawel: And he comes into office to shake things up and to disturb the status quo, in many ways, and not the least of those is the judicial system, the Miriam Pawel: I talked about Pat Brown Supreme Court appointments.

But, you know, he made of course hundreds of appointments to lower courts at that time, the lower courts were almost all run by white men, the judiciary was extremely homage homogeneous homogeneous. Miriam Pawel: And Jerry Brown comes in as part of this new wave with a sort of Miriam Pawel: A really a very personal mandate to change that and a belief that government should look like the government and should reflect the governor Miriam Pawel: And his first year in office in 1976 half of the judges that he appointed or either black, Latino, Asian American or women. Miriam Pawel: He had spent one year, his first year out of law school clerking for justice Matthew to brener who his father put on the court. Miriam Pawel: And he found that his experience in the Supreme Court was not as he later said he did not find it to be a yeasty environment. Miriam Pawel: And that influenced his own decisions in terms of who he appointed to to the court and later on to the Supreme Court.

27:16 - Miriam Pawel: which we’ll get to in a minute. But another influence on him was his the year that he or the month. I’m sorry that he spent Miriam Pawel: Living in the mansion, while his father was Governor when he was studying for the bar and I’m going to play. Hopefully if this will work a short clip of Jerry Brown and a conference at Yale Law School is alma mater, where he discusses his thoughts about About the bar. Pretty good. Now that’s the only time I think someone’s been recalled, I want to say something else about selection.

28:05 - That when I was Studying for the bar living in the governor’s mansion. After my father would go to bed. I would come downstairs and open his briefcase and read the various materials that he was taking home from the office. And there was an index file on judicial candidates and in this only file. Consider the names of prospective candidates. And then you’d have various advisors that would rate. The Kennedys and I would notice that one of the Raiders was Warren Christopher, I noticed sometimes he would give an ad to somebody, but there were other raiders, that will give the same person A, C, or D. Now some of those other people.

I probably shouldn’t say this, but they were involved in getting people are elected. And involved in those activities that are very crucial to campaigns. And so I that really struck me as some people can be both a see na depending upon what values you were trying to maximize and that certainly does go into the to the process of appointing I’ve appointed about Miriam Pawel: Okay. Miriam Pawel: So he’s appointments reflected that desire to really shake things up and to change, as I said, the, the form and the judiciary. Miriam Pawel: And he appointed to the California Supreme Court, the first woman, the first black and the first Latina, please. Very nice.

So 29:50 - Miriam Pawel: While the manual in Roseburg in most people have probably heard of Roseburg, or people of a certain age in California have heard of Roseburg Miriam Pawel: Roseburg was a really very, very interesting a pioneering woman. She had been the first woman law clerk on the Nevada Supreme Court, the first female public defender in Santa Clara County and then the first woman to be a Miriam Pawel: To hold the rank of a cabinet secretary when Jerry Brown appointed her as the Secretary of Agriculture and then in 1977. He not only appointed sort of the core, but he appointed her Miriam Pawel: As Chief Justice there. This was a trouble tenure. For many reasons which we can get into in questions if people are interested, but Miriam Pawel: Ultimately Roseburg was not she was not recall, but when she had to run for a full term in 1986 she and crews will also add a third appointee of Jerry Brown were all denied their, their positions on the court. Miriam Pawel: This allowed brown successor George Deukmejian A FAIRLY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN to appoint conservatives to the Court.

31:05 - Miriam Pawel: Early changed the complexion of the Supreme Court and Brown has talked about this retrospect that it showed him that if you went too far in one direction, it might have the opposite effect of what you were trying to do. Miriam Pawel: So, while many people when they think about Jerry Brown and his first terms in his appointments, the court. Think of Roseburg and view that kind of as a failure because she was ultimately Miriam Pawel: Replaced by, by far more concerned your judges. I think it’s really important to remember his legacy in terms of his impact on the rest of the courts in California, which are enormous. California has Miriam Pawel: More stage judges.

Then, and I think the number is used to be more at that time there were three times as many turnovers in California as entire federal system and he’s he’s 32:02 - Miriam Pawel: Diversifying of the bench, which now we something we take for granted but was really quite revolutionary at the time by appointing people who not only were of different races and genders. Miriam Pawel: And ethnicity, but also who did not come, who came from different walks of life who word public defenders. Miriam Pawel: Who were who came from business who didn’t necessarily come out of prosecutors offices. Miriam Pawel: Once you open that door. We did not go back as a state. And I think, you know, we’ve only to sort of look at the recent past, to see how important judicial appointments are Miriam Pawel: In this country, and certainly in the state of California. So the other like really major sorry I forgot this Miriam Pawel: This was a piece that that brown wrote during the campaign to recall justice bird, where he talks about how she was senior signaled out Miriam Pawel: Not because her decisions were significantly different from those of our predecessors, your mini for colleagues and and he does not say this explicitly in this commentary.

But there certainly was a major element of sexism involved in court at that time. Miriam Pawel: The other really major criminal justice issue that confronted him and that is obviously very Miriam Pawel: Relevant to all of the issues that are confronting California today as well is the prison system. And this is sort of comparing Miriam Pawel: When when Jerry Brown came into office, the size of the prison system 20,000 inmates 11 state prisons kind of very small fraction of the state budget. Miriam Pawel: Now this begins change during even his first term where by 1979 when he’s reelected, the prison population has jumped 13% Miriam Pawel: And the numbers of men getting admitted to present is up by 75% and that growth prompts him for to propose what becomes a building spree for California somewhat to the benefit of the Central Valley. Miriam Pawel: Where he proposes building 10 new prisons.

By the end of the time that he’s his second term as governor 34:20 - Miriam Pawel: A lot of what was driving this and what has driven the growth in incarceration enormous growth in in incarceration in California to this day was the switch from indeterminate sentencing to determine at sentencing, which took away the discretion of judges to set sentences that Miriam Pawel: Within within a certain range and the rationale for doing that at the time in California was one of many, many states that did this was that Miriam Pawel: Because having indeterminate sentencing lead to great racial disparities, because of the subjective nature of the decisions that were made and was was sending more black and brown men to prison. Miriam Pawel: And it was thought that determined and sentencing would be a way to address that which it didn’t. Miriam Pawel: But what it did you was set in motion this enormous wave of legislation, where the legislature passed specific because they now could Miriam Pawel: pass legislation with specific terms attached to various crimes they began to do that. There was it coincided with the sort of real rise in the law and order mentality. Miriam Pawel: Not just in California, but obviously in the country and enhancements and sentences became longer and longer and the three strikes law was passed in California in 1994 Miriam Pawel: So all of this that sort of enormous growth and incarceration in California begins while Jerry Brown is Governor and then continues through the 80s and through the 90s.

35:59 - Miriam Pawel: By the time Jerry Brown left office in 19 at the end of 1982 he was Miriam Pawel: He, he had come in as one of the most popular governors in modern times since polling began, and by the time he left office. He was one of the least popular he had run for President, two times Miriam Pawel: He lost a race for the US Senate to Pete Wilson in 1982 and goes offer an period of Miriam Pawel: Number of years in what are his friends, referred to as the wilderness years in which he does various things sort of always trying to get back into politics in one way or another. Miriam Pawel: When Roseburg was recalled. He was in Japan studying and practicing Zen Buddhism. Miriam Pawel: He became chair of the state party in 1989 is another sort of attempt to get back into politics and then in 1992 made his third and final run for president. Miriam Pawel: Foreshadowing some of the Howard Dean and even Bernie Sanders echoes where he ran with a one 800 number where people call to contribute money.

He did not take contributions above $100 37:05 - Miriam Pawel: He lasted sort of to the end in the Democratic primary against Bill Clinton, who political junkies may remember some of the Clinton and brown debates, and if not, you may want to look them up. They’re quite quite interesting and entertaining. Miriam Pawel: And he’s basically, you know, leaves the convention in 1992 finished in politics. Miriam Pawel: Except that, as we know, he wasn’t. And what he does in order to reinvent himself in a very California way is moved from San Francisco to Oakland. Miriam Pawel: This is a photo of him on the roof garden you organic garden of the sort of commune that he formed in Oakland and in an effort to build a community, he hosted a weekly radio show.

And he also began to sort of plot is next political move, which was to run for mayor of Oakland in 1998 38:01 - Miriam Pawel: I believe this is when he was elected mayor of Oakland 1998 and being a being mayor of Oakland really in influences his views of thinking about criminal justice in major, major ways that will come to play once he is again in state office and unable to to influence them and Miriam Pawel: The reason that the experience of being mayor. One of the main reasons that it’s such a formative time for him is that he skipped all of the Miriam Pawel: experience of being a local office holder that most politicians go through, whether it’s a city council or a local mayor or county supervisor. Miriam Pawel: And he, you know, jumped into politics as Secretary of State because of his name because he was admin. GERALD. BROWN, JR. And that was a very well known name in in California. Miriam Pawel: So being mayor really exposes him to all of the the issues that confront local officials and the mayor of Oakland at this time. Miriam Pawel: The primary issue.

The first issue that everybody was concerned about was 39:13 - Miriam Pawel: Criminal Justice related Oakland had one of the highest homicide rates in the country at that point. Miriam Pawel: And it also had as the rest of California did an incredibly high recidivism rate. So he begins to walk the streets of Oakland during his campaign and in his early months and years as mayor and Miriam Pawel: confront the issues of criminal justice in in two different ways. And there’s a we’re going to play a short clip here, where he talks about his first during the campaign. What it was like learning for Him, for Him hearing about people’s concerns.

40:02 - I heard was people talk about crime that dope dealers on the corner. Somebody put a gun in my back. I never met people had a gun, put in their back and Not once or twice, but frequently I taught in these meetings or listened to people who were the victims of crime. Yeah, they don’t like it so that certainly got my attention. Miriam Pawel: To our summer events, his attention, but something else about and and he sort of had a tough on crime persona as trying to do something to to improve the Miriam Pawel: System in in Oakland, but it caught his attention in another way to and that was his beginning to understand what the impact was of the California prison system. Miriam Pawel: And the fact that locking people up and viewing prisons purely as something that was about punishment which was very much how he had thought about them in his first Miriam Pawel: tenure as governor, where he talked about he sort of may really almost a rocket of comments about people who wanted to talk about their mothers and talking about psychiatry is and Miriam Pawel: This was an issue of crime and punishment. It was not about rehabilitation.

But then he begins to see in Oakland that as he would say most of these people are coming out and they’re coming back and they’re coming into your community. And if nothing is done to Miriam Pawel: Help them while they’re in prison. Miriam Pawel: As this quote says it’s a treadmill. It’s a merry go round. It’s a scandal and he began to refer to prison system as postgraduate schools of crime. Miriam Pawel: One in 14 men in Oakland of time he was mayor or either on parole or probation. So Oakland begins to really change the way he also thinks about what should be the nature of the prison system in California. Miriam Pawel: All right, as know he then is in a position to actually do something about that. He goes Polly’s his tenure in the, you know, most unlikely. Miriam Pawel: resurgence of a political career. He goes from being mayor of Oakland to being Attorney General holding up is the photo of his father when he was Miriam Pawel: Elected on election night and four years later, is elected governor.

This is a photo from the election night celebration in Oakland at the fox theater with his wife and Russ brown 42:41 - Miriam Pawel: The so he had comes in with a second chance to do you know i mean sort of Miriam Pawel: Again I to me a very California story that someone who had done all of the things that he’s done his first time around has had all this time comes back was the youngest governor comes back as the oldest governor in the history of California in a, you know, very different. Miriam Pawel: different time period in a different era in a different way in which we’re thinking about criminal justice. Miriam Pawel: But also, he’s in a different place, and has a more mature view. And it’s also learned thought about and learn from the things that Miriam Pawel: That he did the first time. So one of the things he does is once again focused on remaking the California Supreme Court.

He’s in the fortunate position of having four appointments during his eight years as governor and Jerry Brown 2.0 Miriam Pawel: And very determined obviously not to Miriam Pawel: make any mistakes that he made the first time he appointed the fallen for people here. Could we luminato Florentino Cray are coming under Krueger, all of whom were Yale Law School graduates. Miriam Pawel: And then in the jury final weeks of his administration. He appointed Josh Groban who had been browns advisor on judicial appointments, up until that time he deviate from the other three because he was a graduate of Harvard Law School, as opposed to yell.

44:19 - Miriam Pawel: And as you can see they’re all young, they’re all very rigorous intellectual scholars Miriam Pawel: And are likely to really, you know, I think we haven’t seen yet what the impact of the the brown court will be, but we’re gonna you know that that will be a fertile ground for scholars to research for for many years to come. Miriam Pawel: All together in terms of these judges and in California. At the time, I probably still but at the time that he was governor had Miriam Pawel: Twice the number of judges in total, as the entire federal system. Miriam Pawel: He brown appointed if you count all four of his terms, more than 1200 judges, which is three quarters of the total opposite. Not that they all serve the same time but you know his impact on the judiciary and shaping it Miriam Pawel: Is just enormous and there were lots and lots of firsts over the course of the second two terms of different Miriam Pawel: Ethnicities different sexual identities different genders.

45:28 - Miriam Pawel: Lots of lots of lots of firsts in in lots of courts around the country. Miriam Pawel: The other thing that he confronts, of course, is the California state prison system. Again, the numbers from 1975 and then you can see when he comes back into office in 2011 Miriam Pawel: The, you know, incredible growth in the system and California had been sued for litigation that went on for many years. Miriam Pawel: Over the inhumane conditions in the prison system because it was so overcrowded, and the medical care was so bad that the federal government and federal judge rather actually did appoint a receiver for that to oversee the health system in the prisons. Miriam Pawel: Which is still still in fact Miriam Pawel: So he has the other, the other thing he inherits when he comes back in 2011 is a $26 billion deficit.

46:24 - Miriam Pawel: So he has both a financial incentive to do something about reducing that $8 billion dollars that’s being spent on the prison system. Miriam Pawel: And he is ultimately under court order from the US Supreme Court. He does fight that the case up until the US Supreme Court, but ultimately has to find ways to reduce the prison system and Miriam Pawel: The what follows over the course of the years is a series of actions that are taken both by him as an executive actions by through propositions that he champions and they’re passed by, by popular by popular vote and through legislation. Miriam Pawel: Which also he spearheaded as well that that all of which would go to general the general topic. Miriam Pawel: In general, as a general impact of reducing both the harshness of sentences that were passed during all of that period of time during which our prison system grew Miriam Pawel: During the Rockefeller drug laws, the incredibly long sentences. The three strikes laws, all of that.

There are a whole series of actions that are taken. Miriam Pawel: Through all of the mechanisms that I described Miriam Pawel: To ameliorate those sentences in particularly a focus on youth, and here again, they’re sort of echoes of his father here but building on the idea that there’s growing evidence that the brains of young people are not fully formed in some ways. Miriam Pawel: He begins to really focus on ways to go back and give second chances to people, to provide opportunities for parole for people who were denied and under other circumstances to lessen sentences and Miriam Pawel: To in general. Miriam Pawel: Make the system. Miriam Pawel: To try to roll back so many of the very harsh things that were done over the course of the years that built up the prison system. Miriam Pawel: He. This is a very Jerry Brown, quote, where he was talking.

This was at a, at a forum where he was encouraging employers to hire people who came out of prison and he said, I helped screw things up, but I helped unscrew them. Miriam Pawel: And a lot of this is driven by his belief in the power of redemption and the importance of giving people second chances. And again, something that really harkens back to his father as well. And here’s a short clip on that. Been brought up idea of forgiven. Miriam Pawel: This and redemption in the, the essence of Christianity is redemption that that’s Jesus Christ the Redeemer. That’s what’s all about. So, those who say Miriam Pawel: When she can make certain crimes you are forever for 1020 3050 7080 years. That’s it.

49:38 - Miriam Pawel: That really does run afoul of Natalie Christianity but our whole American tradition and just plain common sense, because the proposition of the DA is is we know on the day we charge or on the day of the judge sentences. Everything that can occur. We know all we need to know for the next 50 years and all I’m saying is you might have had some very good ideas there in the charges and the verdict that came in, but over the passage of time. Main change women change and those changes ought to be accommodated so that we can open up the cells for new people that are even more dangerous reading Miriam Pawel: So perhaps the clearest Miriam Pawel: Evidence of the way in which that played out and and changed so many lives in such significant ways in California. Miriam Pawel: Or the number of clemencies that Governor Brown issue, particularly in his last two years in office. And if you look at his first two terms 400 pardons for an four and one commutation Miriam Pawel: And in his last two terms in office, he issued 1300 32 pardons and 285 commutations many of them dealt with men generally are women as well who had committed crimes when they were very young and been sentenced to these incredibly long terms. Miriam Pawel: Minute.

Some of them were pardons for immigrants who faced the danger of deportation. He spent many, many hours. Miriam Pawel: Reading files and thinking about these issues took them incredibly seriously and we’re still issuing commutations up to I think basically his last hours in the office in December of 2018 Miriam Pawel: So then he retired to kalisa. This is the same land that you saw on the first slide where his great grandfather settled. Miriam Pawel: Jerry Brown built mountain house three as he calls it, which is the mountain house with the end that his great grandfather ran Miriam Pawel: And returned to his ancestral home, but he has stayed active and interested and engaged in criminal justice issues. Miriam Pawel: And in particular, most recently a photo that he tweeted from his voting on election day.

And in the old fashioned way, he went and cast a ballot in person. Miriam Pawel: He had campaigned and done it done some commercials and spent some of his money from the he has in his campaign trust to help to ensure that proposition 20 was defeated proposition 20 would have rolled back. A lot of those changes that he was instrumental in Miriam Pawel: In enacting and here you see I think in many ways, kind of the essence of his feelings about criminal justice that most people believe that human beings can turn their lives around if given the chance. So I’m going to stop. On that note, and Miriam Pawel: Turn it back to you. Miriam for questions. Thank you all. Miriam Raub Vivian: Okay. Well, thank you very much. Miriam, that was a wonderful overview of the governor’s brown and their 24 years in office and the impact that they had, especially on the judiciary, as well as Miriam Raub Vivian: The criminal justice system in general.

So thank you so much and I again would invite you to type your question in if you click the button. The Q AMP a function at the bottom of the screen. Miriam Raub Vivian: It will prompt you to type of question there. And as I said, we’ll try to get to as many of these as we can. So the first one is Miriam Raub Vivian: From someone who’s been we don’t have, but it’s, it says it’s fascinating that rose bird was a public defender. Miriam Raub Vivian: And Governor Jerry Brown continued to appoint public defenders in his second round. I’m not sure people realize how unusual.

This is federal and state executives overwhelmingly appoint former prosecutors hopefully Biden will follow Jerry’s lead on this. Miriam Pawel: Um, yeah, he’s Miriam Pawel: Appointing. I mean, he, he talked a little bit in one of those interviews that I ran a clip from about how it had becoming, particularly in the 1990s. Miriam Pawel: That be that the route to becoming a judge in California was to be a prosecutor to be a deputy district attorney and that he really believed that again in a Miriam Pawel: Way that the courts needed to reflect the diversity of society was in bringing people lawyers into the putting lawyers on the bench, who came from different walks of life. Miriam Pawel: And that Miriam Pawel: In particular, appointed public defenders, which was Miriam Pawel: I didn’t save it would be controversial, but I get.

I mean, there certainly, certainly was as the question or points out, it was unusual and and continues to be unusual and 55:07 - Miriam Pawel: We will see also weather gov Newsome follows that pattern. He’s not had that many appointments, partly because Miriam Pawel: Governor Brown worked until the very last minute and the reason that he didn’t appoint justice Grove into the court until the very last moment he left that he left that see faking for a long time was that he filled every last drop ship that he could before he left office so Miriam Pawel: We definitely have a far more diverse bench then then we use doing that many and then and and also compared to many other states. Miriam Raub Vivian: Thank you. Miriam Raub Vivian: This question is from Jennifer the political legacy of Jerry Brown seems rather exceptional compared to other state leaders, what was the hook and browns career that inspired you to study the Browns political and personal family history. Miriam Pawel: So, um, Miriam Pawel: I guess that’s it. That’s another I’ll answer that by by sort of talking about why I wrote the book and how I came to write it. I had done other California books as Dr.

Vivian mentioned that were 56:16 - Miriam Pawel: About Cesar Chavez, who also intersected with Jerry Brown in a fairly significant way during their tenure. Miriam Pawel: But Miriam Pawel: Ultimately i’m i’m not i’m a transplant from New York. So I always say 2pm I can’t, I can’t see any of you out there, but I always said don’t hold that against me. I you know I made the right decision. I came here and Miriam Pawel: Partly I think because I did not grow up here and I didn’t learn California history. I, I find it completely fascinating and really have wanted to find more ways to dig in to tell that story and in Miriam Pawel: When he was in Miriam Pawel: Taking office for his fourth and final term in his State of the State Address Governor Brown talked about his great grandfather august shopping in his photo I showed, and about the history of his family coming to the country.

57:16 - Miriam Pawel: immigrating to to California in the in the 19th century and settling on this land. There is a diary that August schopman kept when he crossed Miriam Pawel: When you cross the Plains in 1852 and brown read from part of that during his State of the State Address. Miriam Pawel: And he talked about his own desire to go back and settle on this land as he has instant and I was purely just taking by the idea of the sweep of that and the way in which in some ways the arc of his family mirrors the history, the State of California, which became a state in 1850 Miriam Pawel: And just curious really about his decision. I don’t know how many people who are watching this, or listening. Miriam Pawel: Have been to palooza but it’s not a place that most people in California would consider a garden spot of the state or choose to live in.

If they could live anywhere in California and so 58:14 - Miriam Pawel: Really interested in, who’s this wanting to go back there to settle and when to talk to him about that and I met with him for the first time. Miriam Pawel: On that land when there was nothing there except for a couple of Barnes. Miriam Pawel: And in the conversation that we have the air. He talked about his family and he talked about his father and I listened to him just began to think of Miriam Pawel: The way that you know the the incredible impact that the family had and the fact that very little really been written about that there is one very comprehensive biography of Pat Brown. Miriam Pawel: And so it seemed to me that the family was a vehicle to tell a particular history of California and also to look at the ways in which they had this really enormous impact in in so many ways.

And so many realms on shaping the state that we that we live in. Miriam Raub Vivian: Thank you very much. This one is a question maybe others are interested in, and I can answer it. Perhaps I would love to rewatch this will we have access to the recording. Miriam Raub Vivian: And yes, The Event is being recorded and we should be able, I don’t know how many days. It might take maybe not long at all, but should be able to put it on the public history Institute web page and the Keighley Institute of ethics also has a YouTube Miriam Raub Vivian: Page or YouTube channel or their page can carry this link as well. So we should be able to get it out. I would say within the next few days.

59:56 - Miriam Raub Vivian: The next question is Miriam Raub Vivian: And that was from Jamie, this is anonymous. It was interesting to me that Jerry and assigning statement on not trying 14 to 15 year olds, as adults, said to paraphrase. Miriam Raub Vivian: It’s not about them, what they did. It’s about what kind of society do we want to be. Is that similar to his view on the death penalty. Miriam Pawel: Um, Miriam Pawel: I’m not sure exactly which signing statement that refers to Miriam Pawel: But I don’t know that he would have said it was not about Miriam Pawel: Or that he didn’t take into account the nature of crimes that people committed, he did and he Miriam Pawel: Thought about them a lot and and talked to lots of people in each of the case, he spent a lot of time on each of the case files that came before him for potential Miriam Pawel: Potential commutation certainly Miriam Pawel: None of which were death penalty cases, by the way, but it I’m just trying to think of how to how to answer this immediate, it is about Miriam Pawel: How that how we treat people is about the society that we are but also it’s not. I don’t think Miriam Pawel: He’s he would say that it was not about the crime that was committed, but that people should not be reduced to Miriam Pawel: The essential essential essential reality of that crime, you know, I think that you heard what he said about that people, people have an ability to change and something that someone did, particularly when they were a teenager say Miriam Pawel: That that was that should not define them for the rest of their life and and how we treat people is, is a measure of that one of the things I didn’t get to Miriam Pawel: Didn’t mention is that the prison system has also shifted and this is in line with other systems as well.

And the other prisons in the national trend, but there is a lot more emphasis on rehabilitation in prison. Now there are were before. Calvin. Miriam Pawel: college courses offered, and I think maybe all but one of the prisons, which is new. Miriam Pawel: And in general, there the even the, the definition of punishment. Miriam Pawel: Of the of the criminal justice system is was changed in the last number of years ago to say that it was not purely about punishment, but also about rehabilitation. So I think that, you know, his evolving views reflected also to some to Miriam Pawel: Some to some degree are evolving for us as a society.

And one of the things that that is not specific to him. But I think it’s important to remember in the context of this whole conversation. Miriam Pawel: Is it. It’s too sick is that half of the people in the United States now because of this enormous Miriam Pawel: Expansion of the prison system has gone on everywhere, half of the people in the United States have a relative or a loved one who is either either in or has been in prison. Miriam Pawel: And so when you think about that, it makes sense that people’s views of what it means to be in prison have also changed involved on the death penalty, which was the question specifically. He has been anti death penalty. Miriam Pawel: He consistently from his young days from protesting outside the prison during one of the the executions and obviously in the call to his father. Miriam Pawel: He did not campaign.

03:53 - Miriam Pawel: As I recall, he did not take an inactive position on the last most recent referendum to repeal the death penalty, which did not pass Miriam Pawel: I think that he felt that there were other issues that he really wanted to still get through on the criminal justice system. One of the important ones that I didn’t mention Miriam Pawel: Which is also one of the last bills that he signed as governor in the fall of 2018 Miriam Pawel: Was a bill that came out of the legislature video is very active and championing it, which was to change the definition of felony murder. Miriam Pawel: Which had an enormous impact on people who were in prison now as well because it is not only perspective but retroactive felony murder meant that you could be charged with first degree murder and and sent away for you know 25 years Miriam Pawel: For being an accessory to a murder. Even if you didn’t even necessarily know that the murder was taking place at the time. Miriam Pawel: So there were things that he and I’m the roundabout answer but.

But part of the reason that he did not take a more active stance on the death penalty referendum, per se. Miriam Pawel: Was a political calculation on his part that they were other issues, the propositions at the time and other legislation still that he wanted to get through. And it was a balancing act. Miriam Pawel: I’m not. I hope I answered the question that was a little roundabout. Sorry. Miriam Raub Vivian: Thank you. This is from Jason and this and the next one or both a little bit longer but it’s essentially has to do with the consistency of brown in his Miriam Raub Vivian: evaluations of those who might deserve commutations or not. So in one of those interviews. Miriam Raub Vivian: I recall from hearing it earlier.

After arguing the rationale from Christianity and American values for forgiveness. Miriam Raub Vivian: He notes that people like her hands or hand quote ain’t never getting out and he also has repeatedly denied parole, the people who have shown transform lives like Leslie van Houghton Miriam Raub Vivian: So the question is why is he inconsistent and how we approach appropriate some things like forgiveness or belief in a second chance for some people and not others. Miriam Pawel: Right okay well III. Don’t think that I’m qualified to answer that question, particularly because that’s sort of going inside his mind in ways that Miriam Pawel: That I can’t do. And I don’t I don’t I don’t have any great insight on that chasing beyond what what i think you already know. Miriam Pawel: Which is that, you know, people.

People are inconsistent and I think he would argue that I mean he has argued that there are rationales for all of his decisions. I don’t know that he has explicitly explained that I my dentist actually has asked me frequently about Leslie van Houghton Miriam Pawel: Why Miriam Pawel: Paul has been denied and and actually I think that Gavin Newsom just deny pro this year as well. So, you know, there are things in people’s prison records that we don’t see that are not public. Miriam Pawel: And i mean i i’m not i’m not i’m not taking a position on the rightness or wrongness of Governor Brown’s actions on this I would only say that, you know, Miriam Pawel: By way of explanation that I think he would argue that he spends a lot of time reviewing the files and the people’s behavior and weighing those issues. Miriam Pawel: And it will tell you, for example, when Miriam Pawel: The last remaining Miriam Pawel: Was at the SLA. The.

It was the person who was convicted of 07:53 - Miriam Pawel: Who was convicted in connection with the murder of Marcus Garvey the Oakland superintendent and when that person came up for Miriam Pawel: For for clemency request, he talked to the Miriam Pawel: Marcus Garvey’s daughter and to a whole bunch of people who are involved in, in that case before making a decision, and I think that was sort of typical of his of his method. So, Miriam Pawel: Yeah, people are inconsistent, but I think he would argue that he had his rationale and all the decisions that he made. Miriam Raub Vivian: Okay, thank you. This is from one of my department, colleagues, Karen. And she says, first, thank you. Miriam for this wonderful and fascinating talk. Miriam Raub Vivian: These actually both have to do with brown and Miriam Pawel: I have Miriam Raub Vivian: I have two questions. I’m thinking about Jerry Brown’s time in office during the declining years of Oakland black power movement, which resulted in the incorrect incarceration of many people with ties to groups like the Black Panther Party throughout the 1970s.

09:04 - Miriam Raub Vivian: Has Jerry Brown played a role in current discussions about the movement department political prisoners from this black power era and to did he live in the Oakland com you are solely help established Miriam Pawel: Okay, I get an answer to one is a tough question. Miriam Pawel: It is a really interesting. He gets elected in 1998 with more votes from the black community, then all of the black candidates combined and use the first white mayor of Oakland in I think about 20 years so it was it was a really interesting time Miriam Pawel: And it was, as you say, the sort of the declining years of that the the black power movement in Oakland. Miriam Pawel: I don’t know. I’m sorry. I actually really just don’t know the answer to the first question as to whether he’s been involved in any of those conversations Miriam Pawel: I kind of doubt that he’d be involved in any of them now, because, you know, but I don’t know. Um, but I can’t answer the Oakland question he did live in the commune. He built a commune. It had like 10 or 12 bedrooms. I think he he has always I read about this a lot in the book.

10:21 - Miriam Pawel: It’s interesting because he is in some ways, such an atypical successful politician who does not he rejected his father’s whole sort of his father, as the ultimate Miriam Pawel: Old Style back slapping baby kissing parade waving politician, you know, incredibly gregarious always talking to people. Miriam Pawel: I meet a lot of people still who will say that they were in an elevator at one point with Pat Brown. Miriam Pawel: And by the time the elevator went from the ground floor up to wherever it was going. He had introduced himself and met everyone in the elevator. He was just that. Miriam Pawel: Kind of a bubbly personality, his son, as I’m sure most people now is that are very much not like that.

However, he’s always been very interested in community, whether it was the jazz community. Miriam Pawel: Whether it was design community. And then he did attempt to create this commune in Oakland. Miriam Pawel: It didn’t really kind of work. He had trouble getting people to eat together and things like that. But He absolutely did live there until some point where you go to school during the one who’s elected mayor, I think. And then he moved to a loft in Miriam Pawel: Downtown Oakland, I almost forgot what it’s called. Sorry, it’s, it was the old Sears building, I believe. Miriam Pawel: In and he was Miriam Pawel: I think Oakland was just a very formative time for him. He also found it to charter schools in Oakland, which are still they are the Oakland Military Institute and the Oakland school for the arts very involved continues to be very involved with them to this day.

12:07 - Miriam Pawel: And yeah, Oakland was important. Okay. Miriam Raub Vivian: Thank you. This is from destiny did Miriam Raub Vivian: Did he reaches goal. Did the definition of murder change. This is a reference to your earlier discussion of Jerry Brown and the felony murder. I think into whether anything that policy or that law about felony murder. I think that’s what’s being asked her, that change. Miriam Pawel: So yes, absolutely.

The felony murder law did change he signed into law in September of 2018 12:47 - Miriam Pawel: He is. It’s a very active issue right now because as I said it, it applies retro actively as well. So there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people in the prison system, who were sentenced under Miriam Pawel: These very draconian laws that apply to felony murder, who now are eligible to apply to be resentenced and many have already Miriam Pawel: gotten out of prison. It’s been going up into the courts on appeal, and all of the appeals have upheld both the perspective and the retrospective nature of the law. So it was a hugely significant change. Miriam Pawel: Oh, I like the next question. Miriam Raub Vivian: Yeah.

So actually, Nadia has two questions that I’m really glad she asked the second one. Miriam Raub Vivian: Which I’ll maybe take first, just because I meant to say something earlier about Miriam powers most recent book, the Browns of California. And she asks, How do we buy the book and I noted in little searching that it’s available both in hardbound and Kindle additions. Miriam Raub Vivian: And I don’t know, maybe add any more about Miriam Raub Vivian: Except Miriam Pawel: Accessing the bookstore. It’s about it’s Miriam Pawel: Available in paperback to and you can buy it anywhere.

I love to encourage people to buy from independent bookstores. There’s also Miriam Pawel: bookshop which is now sort of trying to set itself up as an online alternative to Amazon. But if you want to buy it on Amazon. I’m, I’m okay with that too. I Miriam Pawel: Make my peace with that. Miriam Pawel: So, and yeah, and how to and I will be I’d love to sign books for people. I don’t quite know how to do that. But if you have a website, it’s marine Paul calm. There’s a lot more information about the book there and there’s also an email address for me there. Miriam Pawel: Feel free to email me an email me with any questions that you have that don’t get answered, or that occur to you or if you read the book.

I love to hear from meters and just hear what people think. I think Miriam Pawel: I would encourage everyone to write to authors, not just me, but the authors really like to hear from people who read books, sometimes Miriam Pawel: Sometimes you think that no one has read your book, other than your family and your friends. And so it’s always really nice to to hear from people. So and if someone if there’s a way to work out a way to logistically sign books I’m I’d be happy to do that. Miriam Raub Vivian: Maybe post been pandemic, they’ll be some opportunity or Miriam Raub Vivian: You can communicate by email to see if I can work something out.

15:29 - Miriam Raub Vivian: Nobody has this question as well. How do you feel about cameras in the courtroom. Miriam Pawel: Um, well as a journalist. I’m always in favor of access to anything so i i’m in favor of cameras in the courtroom. But, but it’s not something I’ve really thought a lot about Miriam Raub Vivian: Okay, it says send an anonymous question very interesting Personal. Personal question. I went to the women’s prison and chowchilla near the end of Jerry Brown’s term. Miriam Raub Vivian: Some women there told me in a prayer group they prayed for Jerry every night.

I thought if anyone appreciate that he might was commutations and legislation had a powerful impact on people. So more comment than a question but Miriam Pawel: Um, that’s, that’s, that’s really very powerful. And I’m sure that he would really appreciate that. Miriam Pawel: I do think Miriam Pawel: You know, he took all of that work incredibly seriously. And I think, I mean, I was really glad to have this opportunity to talk about his Miriam Pawel: Record on criminal justice in part because I think that it’s gotten not as much attention as it should. Miriam Pawel: That the historian and me and then this the narrative storyteller in me likes the sweep, you know, much as I said that I was attracted to the book into writing about the family because the way in which the mirror the history of California and and the things that it allowed me to tell Miriam Pawel: But in particular his actions and his beliefs and his impact for good and bad on the criminal justice system.

17:17 - Miriam Pawel: Over the course of what from 75 1975 till Miriam Pawel: However, many years. That is Miriam Pawel: It just, it’s I think it’s a very powerful story, it says a lot about Miriam Pawel: A vacuum emotions and I think it says a lot about him and his character and the reasons I put that picture from the seminary in there also is because he’s Jesse with training and background in which, which is what high school Miriam Pawel: Is also a very kind of powerful part of his personal motivation, I think, I hope that you heard that a little bit in in in some of the clips Miriam Pawel: But I to have. I have met some of the people who are out of prison now because he commuted their sentences and it’s it’s sort of very they’re living Miriam Pawel: productive lives. I will also just to tie this back to his father in pat Brown’s book about the death penalty, he writes about Miriam Pawel: Visiting and having someone come to his office who sentence he commuted who’s had been on death row and who later actually got out of prison on parole, and was leading Miriam Pawel: A good productive life. Many of the early some of the people that Jerry Brown to muted have been very active now in criminal justice reform and in trying to help people who are coming out and to improve the re entry opportunities and systems for Miriam Pawel: For men and women were coming out of the prison today.

So I think the fact that women prayed for him at chowchilla 19:03 - Miriam Pawel: Would make him happy. Miriam Raub Vivian: Okay, I don’t see any other questions and we are moving in are closing in on our end time here. So I want to remind you that Michael bros has posted several things in the chat that you have access to, including the link to go ahead and evaluate Miriam Raub Vivian: The talk or take a survey for Kalki manatees, as it were, and you can open that and have it on your screen before we we end our webinar. He’s also provided here and he just put it up again. Miriam Raub Vivian: The grant name humanities beyond bars and he’s also provided a link on Amazon for Miriam Paul’s book should you be interested as well as her web page so Miriam Raub Vivian: Lots of good information there.

Thank you Michael for providing that and thank you for your collaboration Michael and I’m sure Michael joins me in thanking Miriam pal for taking this time to share her insights 20:14 - Miriam Raub Vivian: It’s it’s a beautifully written the book. It’s incredibly engaging the style is wonderful and I i Miriam Raub Vivian: I’m glad that we had this opportunity for you to share what you’ve researched and the the mind, full of information about the browns and and especially for this event focused on the grant that we could look at their influence on the criminal justice system and the Miriam Pawel: Policies and Miriam Raub Vivian: Ideas even about as you said in some place beliefs and principles that they brought to their governorships so thank you so much again. We really appreciate it and thank you so much for attending. Good night, everyone. Miriam Pawel: Thank you. Thanks so much to Miriam Pawel: Public history Institute in Canada. .