Meet the Department of Innovation and Digitalisation in Law, University of Vienna

Urs Gasser: Hello Everyone, My name is Urs Gasser and I’m with the Berkman Klein Center for Internet & Society, and I Urs Gasser: Also have the pleasure currently to be involved in the secretariat of the global network of Internet Society centers. Urs Gasser: And within that context. It’s actually a real pleasure to welcome to wonderful brilliant European colleagues who are Urs Gasser: The heads and Co. Head of the Department of innovation and digitalization law at the University of Vienna this department is actually the latest addition to the growing network of centers. Urs Gasser: We have Professor Christianity been divorced and my old friend, if I may say, Professor Nicholas forego who are joining us for an informal chat about their department. Urs Gasser: And the great work you’re doing. So thanks so much for joining us. I know it’s rather late in the game.

So it’s a pleasure to be in conversation, even at this way, though. Urs Gasser : It’s a bit more like a fireside chat. Urs Gasser: Great. So I checked out your website and realized that the department was, I think, launched in 2017 Urs Gasser: But obviously, both of you are world renowned experts and have been in the field for much longer. And I was just so impressed to see that breadth and depth. Urs Gasser: Of activities that had the idea or department that institute Sherman and was wondering whether you can just share a few highlights, maybe some of the projects you’re most excited about.

And then we can also talk about, you know, 02:04 - Urs Gasser: The communities you feel that I know it’s a very interdisciplinary place where you build bridges, not only across departments, but those across communities and Urs Gasser: do great work to inform policy making. So we can talk about that too. But first, what are you working on. What are you excited about these days. Urs Gasser: Whoever wants to go first. Christiane Wendehorst: John he could Nikolaus Forgo: You want to start. No, go ahead. Go ahead, please. Christiane Wendehorst: Well, thank you so much. Well, first of all, it’s great to be joining this network. So we were so excited when we received your message. And it’s wonderful to to join this community.

02:47 - Christiane Wendehorst: As you already said our department was founded in 2017 and in fact it’s Nikolaos, you know, who is the at the heart of this department and who’s really the pillar of this so Christiane Wendehorst: It’s him here really who started this, and it was me, then who joined. I’m a member of both departments department of private law and Department of innovation and digitization and law. Christiane Wendehorst: So I think Nicolaus and I work in different areas, but there’s also a great deal of overlap. So I, for example. Christiane Wendehorst: Have spent a lot of time recently advising national governments and institutions, you know, I was co Chair of the data ethics commission advising the German Government, you know, of course, because you’re a member of the digital so Christiane Wendehorst: I’ve done a lot of work for the European Commission recently member of the expert group on liability and new technologies, just finished a study on software safety and liability also advised the, the European Parliament in the in the liabilities fear. Christiane Wendehorst: But I also have do a lot together with the with the US, you may know that I’m the European head for the Christiane Wendehorst: Eli, Eli project on a data economy and where we sometimes talk about this Nikolaus so there.

There’s a lot of of overlap with with the work that’s going on at the Department 04:33 - Christiane Wendehorst: So today, for example, we had a meeting with a light colleagues with you will see colleagues to see how we can join forces and how we can align our work. Christiane Wendehorst: On both sides of the Atlantic, so that’s Christiane Wendehorst: Really an important part of my work. And then of course you know there are many individual projects such as with the Academy of Sciences Christiane Wendehorst: Such as a project I’m now starting on for an algorithmic practices and work on consumer law enforcement of the digital age. Christiane Wendehorst: So these are projects and and you know the the wonderful thing is that Nikolaos and I and all the other members of the Institute, we work on different areas, but Christiane Wendehorst: We, we come together. We meet regularly we exchange views and then it is really so enriching for our work at the faculty and at the Institute, but Nicolaus i’m sure you you because you’re really the the Christiane Wendehorst: Main person here.

So you would like to present the institute and 05:51 - Urs Gasser: Sure cristiana is too too modest. Sure. Nikolaus Forgo: Of course of course she certainly Nikolaus Forgo: Of course, as always, actually. Thank you so much for having us here. And it’s really a pleasure to see you again. I think we met for the first time, somewhere in 2002 or so, if I’m not mistaken. So, really long time ago. Nikolaus Forgo: You then still being in Switzerland. I think I may still being in Hanover, then in Germany.

06:16 - Nikolaus Forgo: And and it’s really great to see you again in person, because we never lost track from each other, but the projects, really, really nice to be Nikolaus Forgo: In a closer contact. Now again, so thank you for having us here. Actually, I mean Christiana already pointed out a lot of the of the interesting points of the department, in my view, my work. Nikolaus Forgo: After having spent almost 20 years of my career in Germany, my work at the department was very interesting from the very first day, because I think not too many of my colleagues who asked me. Nikolaus Forgo: kindly asked me to come back to Vienna had too much of an idea what I should do there. So the i mean the the planning was was Nikolaus Forgo: Let’s get someone who works with cristiana and then let’s see what they are doing.

07:02 - Nikolaus Forgo: And so there was a complete freedom, it at least in my feeling at the beginning. What we could do and and and so what I did and but cristiana and Nikolaus Forgo: I did was that we really started from scratch, something so how we thought or how we think that Nikolaus Forgo: Such a department could look like. And we do it in the way that we do things differently. But still we cooperate closely. So, so that’s the approach my, my personal approach is probably Nikolaus Forgo: More technology oriented, so my my approach is more that I understand myself. Also, in a way, as someone who works closely with computer scientists Nikolaus Forgo: I so I always try to stress this a little bit that I that I understand more than average, about the technology behind things.

So, so that is one of the 07:51 - Nikolaus Forgo: One of my specific interests, I would say the second one is, I’m very much interested in everything which comes with data protection data security intellectual property on data. Nikolaus Forgo: So I do not really follow those typical German streams of legal domains. So I tried to do it more in a in a in a horizontal or in a matrix structure, I would say. Nikolaus Forgo: And I tried to do it outstandingly internationally, I would say some team I’m working with consists of 20 people from all over the world, literally, which is not very typical for a German speaking law school. Nikolaus Forgo: And and be working in European project simpler version international projects in in our field of competence which is it and law.

08:39 - Urs Gasser: Yeah, and I mean that’s that’s one thing that perhaps people who are not from a German speaking part of the world. Urs Gasser: Don’t have full insight and appreciation how hard it is actually in Europe to build interdisciplinary programs and build all these bridges across communities. And I was just wondering Urs Gasser: What you’re feeling is also cristiana based on your work that you mentioned. Urs Gasser: We are, it seems, at the moment where whether we wanted or not, whether we are organized in silos of disciplines, or, or, you know, to restrictions or whatever we have to Urs Gasser: Work across disciplines and and that seems to me has always seemed super exciting and the great opportunity. Urs Gasser: And I was just wondering how you look at if you look, reflect on the past couple of years. What’s your assessment.

How far along, have we come to build bridges, for instance, philosophy and computer science or, or, you know, behavioral science. I don’t know what’s, what’s your feeling. I mean, Urs Gasser: Time. So it looks, we have made a lot of progress, but at the same time, we all know I believe how difficult it is actually to find the common language across both disciplines and Elsa as as Nicholas pointed out, of course, the cross cultures and different Urs Gasser: geographies. So it’s just wondering, what’s your, what’s the pulse, like in in in Germany and Austria in Europe. How do you feel about the disciplinary team and also the young people you’re interacting with at university. Christiane Wendehorst: Well, I think the attitude has changed a lot over the past is so if I tried to remember how things used to be like five or even 10 years ago, everybody was really working in their silos and when you suggested Christiane Wendehorst: That you know you need to approach those topics from an interdisciplinary perspective, people would, you know, say, is this really necessary.

I mean, what do these people have to tell us were lawyers were self sufficient. Christiane Wendehorst: I think that has really changed and and in all the teams. I’ve been working in recently. Christiane Wendehorst: Interdisciplinary. It was really key. I mean, just take, for example, the German data Ethics Commission, we wouldn’t have achieved anything without so many disciplines working together. Christiane Wendehorst: And same now in the global partnership on AI where I just lead a project on data governance. Christiane Wendehorst: I mean, it’s so wonderful, you work together with people from all continents from all professions.

11:40 - Christiane Wendehorst: And it’s led by getting all these different perspectives that you managed to achieve something that’s really good at the end of the day. Christiane Wendehorst: So I think this is being accepted now and it’s just what we haven’t really managed and that is maybe something that is characteristic of the German speaking countries. Christiane Wendehorst: We haven’t really achieved to translate this insight into teaching into the way faculties are structured so there we still have a long way to go. But otherwise, I think it’s pretty much accepted now that we need this. Urs Gasser: Because I was wondering, I realize you you have a number of projects also focused on digital health, specifically, which is an area that I am for many reasons personally very interested in Urs Gasser: Just as as you reflect on this interdisciplinary city and also the role, your department place.

Can you share a few insights, how that works out the practice where 12:50 - Urs Gasser: You really bring together multiple disciplines and and you know, how do you build community around that, and is it mostly project as a starting point or do start doing more with, I don’t know colo chaos or whatever. Nikolaus Forgo: No, no. So I, I have been working in this field of ICT for health and law now for the last 15 years or so, mainly on a European level. Nikolaus Forgo: And as, as always, you know, there is a club of people knowing each other in a way that you need to enter Nikolaus Forgo: Enter the group some time and if you enter the group and you’ll behave properly, people tend to ask you again, whether you you you want to work with them again. Nikolaus Forgo: And and those projects are typically funded by the European Union EU, the European Union is a very important funding source in Europe, because they they have Nikolaus Forgo: As an average clearly more money than national funding sources for interdisciplinary projects. So it’s about 10 times to 20 times more money that you receive with such a project than an average Australian or German or Nikolaus Forgo: Or Italian project might bring and and and the typical project.

I mean, of course, there are differences, but the typical project tries to bring together, computer scientists 14:05 - Nikolaus Forgo: Medical experts patient organizations, he all of them having one goal, which is to make medical treatment and research work better than before by better sharing of data. So that is the typical project and then Nikolaus Forgo: If it’s a well managed project they find out quite quickly that if you start sharing data in Europe. Nikolaus Forgo: That is sensitive, you better take care of the of the legal implications at the beginning of the project and not at the end and and our role, then quite often is to try to Nikolaus Forgo: On the one hand, try to keep the project on on track in the sense that they don’t break the law. Nikolaus Forgo: But at the same time also to try to find out in how far the law needs to be extended reformed etc and try to bring this knowledge than back into the legal community and also back to the policy making process. Urs Gasser: This is, I mean just building up in that Urs Gasser: And also work history.

I mentioned before, like the emphasis also on the values and and you just pointed to it as well in the data flow context and data protection context. Urs Gasser: And, you know, I’m curious to hear your thoughts about Urs Gasser: About the European trajectory. Obviously there are people stereotype and say, well, there’s China with the surveillance approached us, you know, with a hands off. Urs Gasser: Laissez Faire like you know they should take care of things approach and then there is Europe with kind of a third way when it comes to digital technologies and and regulation and and sometimes there is this mantra that Urs Gasser: You know, Europe, we use law and order look at law more as a constraining forced to say what’s not allowed and and Urs Gasser: And yet in in your departments title is the word innovation and I know you you approach it the way that you see law is also an enabler of innovation. And I’m just curious. Urs Gasser: What the reflections are, whether it’s in within the health 3090 of the other areas, whether there is some sort of a Urs Gasser: Larger awareness change not only in Europe but also in other parts of the world to maybe reconsider an old fashioned Urs Gasser: View on law where law is Justine as a hammer or as a constraint or something that Urs Gasser: You know, is against innovation and maybe a new appreciation that well if we have safeguards in place people trust more and they may also share more data and collaborate in different ways.

Is that still just hope wishful thinking on my part or the same we see some sort of 16:58 - Urs Gasser: Different yeah really a third way out to look at the law and innovation and technology. So sort of a triangle. Christiane Wendehorst: What. Well, first of all, I couldn’t agree more with you that, you know, we need to have a new perspective on the law and see law as an enabling framework. Christiane Wendehorst: What I experienced, time and again, is that I sit on a panel and people asked me about, you know, what is your view on regulation and I hate the R word. I don’t Christiane Wendehorst: Use it. I say, No, I’m not going to talk about regulation because once I use the term regulation there, you know, there’s so many connotations and Christiane Wendehorst: Emotions that come with it. So I prefer talking about legal frameworks or enabling frameworks, but I have to confess, I think that this perspective is not the mainstream perspective yet.

18:03 - Christiane Wendehorst: I think still I experience like two camps, the camp that, you know, called for regulation in terms of something, you know, having more, a little more restrictions and then the other camp calling for more liberty and this is not how we will make your success. Nikolaus Forgo: I would add that. I mean, if you read the official policy papers of the European Commission, in some way, they, they, they follow your argument saying that Europe needs to find a third way between the libertarian us approach and the Chinese Nikolaus Forgo: authoritarian approach. So you can read quite a lot on this. I think the problem with this is that we are in in Europe urgently. Nikolaus Forgo: Needing the industry that could be regulated. So, so we have a lot of issues when it comes to innovative approaches in in Europe and in my view, one of the reasons Nikolaus Forgo: That is the case might be that law is seen or was seen as a hindering factor, bringing all kinds of complexities, which doesn’t make it too attractive to stay in Europe.

19:16 - Nikolaus Forgo: For some and and therefore it’s urgently needed that we need a new and and and and and different approach about what what law can and can’t do, when it comes to setting the scene for innovations. Urs Gasser: We talked already a little bit about change and you know how interdisciplinary. It has made an entry into legal institutions like law schools. Urs Gasser: Or universities. And I also realize that your, your department is doing quite some work and as as members in the community with focus on legal tech and Urs Gasser: Essentially turning the innovation question your own not so much how does law regulate the innovation of the technology and society. Urs Gasser: That’s out there but vice versa.

Now, well, how should we rethink law at the moment where the same technologies and dynamics also start to you know put pressure, frankly, on the on the legal system. And so just wondering again. Urs Gasser: You know, where, where do you see things going. This is, I mean, there, there is a version where Urs Gasser: Digital Transformation is some sort of seen as a pattern where one industry comes after the next, you know, we started with the entertainment industry. The good old times of peer to peer file sharing Urs Gasser: And then we went, you know, through publishing and transportation with Uber and so forth. Do you think something like that will happen to law or would you say, well, there’s actually a real opportunity picking up on on this conversation that Urs Gasser: We’re not just move towards that Uber ization of law and have what they were legal TECH IN A 1.

0 or two point O sense but that we go through kind of a renaissance moment of law where we start to reconsider more fundamentally, what its role is as you know I 21:24 - Urs Gasser: May be one of the few remaining forces. Urs Gasser: That protect human dignity, but also enable people to live their lives and to flourish. So how do you see some sort of the inbound effect technology meets law and some are law has to innovate, are you more optimistic or are you more like pessimistic. Now maybe from a lawyer’s perspective. Christiane Wendehorst: Local top of your field. Nikolaus Forgo: So should I buy Nikolaus Forgo: Okay, so actually I may, if I may, a very briefly, I think the first answer would be, this is not really, it’s not really new.

Right, so I mean when when I started in Hanover 20 years ago. Nikolaus Forgo: The department. There was called department for legal informatics and there was a reason behind this, which is that the the very beginning of this discipline. I tried to stand for some in the 70s and 80s of the of the 20th century in Europe. Nikolaus Forgo: pretended to to cover both right. So the legal issues of information technology and information technology in the legal system so that that is not really new.

The problem, however, is that the second stream which is 22:37 - Nikolaus Forgo: Leading technology within the legal system did not really survive very well somewhere in the early 21st century because of all this, you know, all these information lawyers appearing Nikolaus Forgo: And interestingly, now when it, when when the Empire Strikes Back, and and and legal tech suddenly is a buzzword that appears also in law schools. Nikolaus Forgo: There is a clear lack of people in law schools, having the necessary technical understanding and the technical skills that are needed to to Nikolaus Forgo: To understand what the technology means, and at the same time, there are not too many computer scientists who are really interested in in law because it’s for them. It’s just, you know, it’s an obscure field. It’s not the most attractive one at all. Nikolaus Forgo: And and that makes it very difficult, in my view, for an average law school to teach this field because you can’t. I mean, to have the competence within the teaching body to cover that. Nikolaus Forgo: So that’s a huge opportunity for people who try to have a technological understanding would be my first answer.

23:35 - Nikolaus Forgo: Second, since I have been working in law, the amount of work and the complexity of the whole infrastructure has significantly increased. So it’s the opposite is true. From everything is getting easier will be done by machines. Nikolaus Forgo: Is getting more and more complicated third Nikolaus Forgo: There is a lot of change, obviously, and you need to understand this. If you are young today that most probably some of the things that the older generation has been doing Nikolaus Forgo: For a living will no longer be there because it will be replaced by machines and it’s good that it will be replaced by machines because it will give you more time. Nikolaus Forgo: To do the interesting work, which is the the human argument on the legal issue and I’m quite confident that the next generation, but at least the next generation.

24:20 - Nikolaus Forgo: Will have plenty of work to to be done there. So I think there are plenty of opportunities. Nikolaus Forgo: The main issue that we have in law schools, at least in Europe is we need to get the competence on really covering what’s going on here. It’s very easy to tell a 20 year old law student Nikolaus Forgo: Artificial intelligence will replace everything in in the law. It’s very difficult to teach them what AI really is and what it can or can’t do Urs Gasser: Yeah, that rings true to me from personal experience in both situations, though. Urs Gasser: I’m cognizant of time. It’s so fascinating to to not only learn more about your work, but also really to to reflect on some of these big questions and get inside so so deeply grateful maybe to end with Urs Gasser: The global network brings together many centers, also in parts of the world where capacity building is other earlier stages.

25:23 - Urs Gasser: Because you pointed out, and also Christiane. Some of us have been in this field for for quite a while. And we’ve had the privilege to work with early organizations and academic centers in this space. And so I’m just wondering whether you have any advice to Urs Gasser: You know, smaller maybe research groups or units or sometimes it’s not even a center area or a department. Urs Gasser: For people who share an interest in this intersection ality and particularly also often feel passion that they want to help.

26:05 - Urs Gasser: Policymakers in particular to make better decisions companies as well, of course, and so is down a given your extensive working in working with governments and policymakers. Urs Gasser: Reflecting on some of these interfaces. What will be your recommendation how even to think about building these relationships that then lead to all these great things that we talked about where, what would you recommend Christiane Wendehorst: Well, I think it’s important for our new research groups that want to, you know, bring their ideas to the fore and they want to see their ideas implemented to find the right channels. Christiane Wendehorst: And I think this is why networks such as the one which which you are leading are so important because these networks can provide platforms can provide challenge channels, also for smaller Christiane Wendehorst: research groups to make their ideas heard, and there are also other platforms, for example, the, the European Law Institute, which I happen to Christiane Wendehorst: Believe in at the moment. This is also something like a platform for ideas, but I think your network is an ideal a channel for Christiane Wendehorst: new and innovative ideas to be submitted to policymakers.

So I think we have to think about these structures and make use of these structures and enhance these structures and this is why we’re so happy. Christiane Wendehorst: To be joining Urs Gasser: Thank you. It is the wealth of networks and I clearly it’s been such a demonstration of the wealth of experience wisdom and insight and also kindness and there Urs Gasser: Because maybe last word, over to you what your hopes are maybe for the coming year in terms of also collaboration, or where you see some of the opportunities. Nikolaus Forgo: So I think that the most important opportunity for me is to learn from everyone who is in this group, because I think as far as I see it, so far it’s a very diverse. It’s a very international international and a very interdisciplinary group. So it’s exactly what I’m looking for.

28:21 - Nikolaus Forgo: And this is also what I hope that we will be able to give here and also be able to receive which is input from other jurisdictions input from other understandings how the law works and input from other disciplines, apart from the door. Nikolaus Forgo: And if this if only half of my expectations become true, it will be a very successful year I’m very sure. Urs Gasser: Fantastic, thank you for such an open invitation to continue the conversation or many different channels. This is a fantastic starting point. And again, deeply appreciate that you took the time even late in the evening. Good talking to you. Thank you so much. And we’ll be in touch. Nikolaus Forgo: Thank you for having us. Urs Gasser: Thank you. Thank you. Urs Gasser: Fine be well thank you .