Trust is the foundation of Cloud [Cloud 2030 Feb 11 2021]

Apr 7, 2021 12:33 · 6185 words · 30 minute read

Hello, I’m Rob Hirschfeld, CEO and co founder of RackN. And this was the February 11, clou 2030 discussion. And it was a really goo one, because we dug into what will change th status quo, we really went into what effect are going to drive consumers to have ne choices, make other choices, undermine thei confidence in the way things go. And we di it in a really interesting way. Because w talked about Bitcoin and confidence i Bitcoin, and governments and what would caus things to change.

And we covered a lot o ground. So I hope you enjoy thi conversation, as always, please come in an participate the 2030 cloud, and I’m lookin forward to talking to you there Thanks. is a danger from a technology perspective, are we going to see a dis copulation of our disruption to the to the centralized function of technology, where there are leaders that say, Hey, this is where we need to go in order to support this function, that function? And we’re going to see it come from everywhere, and there’s going to be so little control, it will be the Wild West again? Yeah, no, I think I think you’re absolutely on to something there.

And that the notion that somehow the crowd will manage things in a more equitable way? Well, I don’t know. Let’s just say they’re not. There’s enough history, particularly in the 20th century, that says crowds get taken over, they get LED, they get manipulated. That’s, that would be tough for me to want to put my, put my future on and bet on that. And crowds generally think short term, I mean, these, the idea of somebody’s thinking about the Commonwealth, and the, you know, the, the, the things that we think of as natural monopolies and and common resources.

You know, the, your if you like, Adam Smith, and and you you go back there you, you know about the tragedy of the commons, how does that play out in in a situation like this? And I think it’s, I think it gives us a lot of reason to think hard about some of this.

02:38 - We’re actually going to the place where I was, I was hoping to the discussion would go today.

02:45 - Oh, good topic. Well, what I what I’ve been having us explore what we’ve sort of been doing naturally anyway, which is nice. Is that is what does it take for consumers to decide they have power in the relationship that we have with these providers? And what we’re talking about right now is that and we have actually a really good conversation about this about complexity. And what what I ended up terming, the Jevons paradox, a complexity going on, right now in cloud infrastructure, where there’s there’s the cost of adding complexity is basically nothing or minimal.

So we’re building very complex systems that have, you know, all this hidden complexity, and we don’t, we’re not paying, we’re not adding, we don’t feel like we’re adding complexity to our systems in a lot of ways we’re not. But what what we keep what we’ve talked about over and over again, in this group, is that the economic driver to go to a subscription model to, you know, pay a little bit as you go to see it as these micro payments to get pulled into this, this system has very good short term rewards, incredibly good short term rewards, right? And we keep being like, and the whole group is like, yeah, I’m worried about the trend line of where this goes.

And at the same time, it’s such a magnetic pull towards that, that outcome that we can’t wait at the same time, we can’t resist it. Right, I keep hearing us have this conversation of Well, yeah, I’m worried about what this looks like when Amazon, you know, gets five times larger than it is, and the behaviors so that’s a concern to me. But in the meantime, the behaviors we’re exhibiting are only feeding that that outcome. And none of us are thinking that we’re going to change that.

04:52 - So what what are you doing? Now, unless you’re thinking that we’re going to change what none of us none of us are expecting and I I see this over and over again, in the conversations I have, including my own, that we’re changing the way we are building technology, selling technology, buying technology, you know, buy products for homes, that does anything to move away from, you know, except accelerate the current cloud models.

And so right, there’s no referring what what current cloud models are you referring to? The fact that I do everything is a SAS that I don’t buy any infrastructure on my own. I don’t expect to buy infrastructure on my own that I I want to continue to have Google and Facebook and Twitter and you know, every other company, Amazon, monetize behind the scenes, my activity, so that that to give me better prices. Right. I mean, we don’t have to go to tech to see this.

We It was interesting enough, right? We were worried in the in the 90s, that Walmart was going to destroy American towns, which you could argue happened, because they would come in, they would reduce the prices drive out the competition. And then when they were the game in town dropped, you raise the prices would go back up. Salaries wouldn’t. And, you know, nobody knew at that time, we didn’t think that there was a reasonable competition for Walmart, we were very wrong there.

But if it feels to me, like we don’t have an answer to when consumers buying this technology, start making a decision that they don’t they don’t like that model that they want to protect their personal data that and then D subscribe. That was a long monologue. I’m watching I’m watching rich tea, because I see you thinking about it.

06:52 - Yeah, well, there are two things. Let’s, for a moment, separate the individual consumer.

07:04 - And everything from the small, small medium business up to big enterprise. Two things.

07:16 - Some of them are, in fact, building out some of their own infrastructure. And this happens in particular, with requirements that are distributed and need to be well coordinated.

07:35 - So right, you do you do find that. Second, there is a kind of colonial power structure that’s being established. And I’ll talk about that. in broad terms, but the same thing that has happened to the individual consumer that, you know, Shoshana, Zubov calls, surveillance capitalism, yeah, um, where you become a, as a as a consumer, you’re getting all of this service search first quote, for free, where, in fact you are the You are the product.

And then trying to extract yourself from that situation is very difficult. That’s happening on a corporate level. And what is happening there is you have the, the giants, you have the Ford you know, you’ve got Ford, you’ve got Caterpillar, you’ve got, you know, GE, who are less involved with actual manufacturing. And what they’re selling are not hard products. They’re selling production time. So the way In fact, you don’t buy a jet engine anymore.

Basically, you’re buying hours on a jet useful hours on a jet engine with a jet engine, g gets to keep the data they have to because they’re maintaining it, but they also take real advantage. Certain manufacturers are not manufacturing anymore.

09:27 - They are outsourcing parts they have for a long time, the electronics industry has done that for decades now. So it’s not just happening with consumers. It’s happening in a kind of a hierarchy. And there is a there’s a form of a new form of call it data capitalism if you want to but it’s, it’s, um, it’s gonna be hard to extract ourselves from that. I don’t know that there is a good way to do it and Quote, democratizing it all, and making it you know, everybody gets a vote is subject to some pretty massive swings and some pretty serious volatility that folks are not going to enjoy very much.

10:25 - So where does the volatility come in? Because you I was with you until you describe that, and that’s soon as you have well help a run on, you know, a decision to take a run at the P ease by going after games. Yeah, that’s pretty serious volatility.

10:53 - And so it’s interesting because this is where the Bitcoin stuff gets, right. Bitcoin is really volatile. So being paid in in Bitcoin is not particularly attractive if it could crash. And you’re. I mean, it’s because it’s the two things right people bought a pizza for a Bitcoin they love to tell these stories, right. And that’s a $10,000 pizza.

11:14 - It wasn’t a $10,000 pizza. It was it was a, you know, it was a 399 Pizza Pizza.

11:20 - Yeah, at the moment. The thing that with Bitcoin is that it is a limited resource that like there isn’t, there’s an artificial limit to how many bitcoins exist by design. And that is why it’s a value store, not a currency because even though there’s short term volatility, longer term, the value of a single Bitcoin is going to go up, particularly as people who are holding Bitcoin and passing away or losing access to their wallets, those Bitcoins are not recoverable.

So the rarity of a single Bitcoin is going up.

12:03 - Now, that’s that is that is exactly the the qualities of an asset class got a currency as you’re absolutely correct about the question then is, alright, what impacts the value or the value associated with a single Bitcoin? And I would say, that’s the place where, because it isn’t tied to a physical good, or there’s very little in the physical universe that it’s it is tied to it can be subject to major swings. And it is that that leads to some pretty volatile and therefore some potentially destructive aspects.

12:57 - I mean, yes or no, Bitcoin in particular, because it’s a proof of work chain, it is rather tied to the processing cost. And this is largely due to cost of electricity. The global value of Bitcoin, over the past five years has been very tightly tied to demand.

13:24 - And because it is now being treated as abolish, or not only by, by public, public, invisible companies like Tesla, but even like, even large, large financial companies, banks are buying up Bitcoin, just as a reserve, and that’s where FinTech is coming in and driving up the price because in order to trade Bitcoin, by law, you have to have a reserve of Bitcoin as well. Yeah. So that is what’s running up to the man and asked us there’s more demand as more companies lock in their reserves, less Bitcoin becomes available, which which, at the same price after the price, as long as people are willing to purchase Bitcoin, there is no long term downward strength, that there might be short dips.

As say, one company says, Well, I my reserves are big enough that I can sell a chunk of it for profit, or someone with what has recovered, say their wallet from 10 years ago, and suddenly they find themselves with 20 bitcoins as a young kind of cashes out.

14:45 - Sure that so there’s gonna be short, short tips. But the long term trend as long as there’s the mat is going to continue going up. So you you said the magic word as long as there’s demand there. There are ways in which demand gets accelerated. And there’s some very interesting ways in which demand gets decimated. And, you know, while the blockchain itself is immutable, all of the access points into and out of blockchains are still very, very leaky, and some of them are downright.

There, there. They have been highway robbery. And the thing around this immutable store, this notion that it’s trustworthy, doesn’t account very often for the shenanigans that go on in the ingress and egress into the blockchain suit. So all you need is one or two serious players who don’t do a good job with an exchange or right, you know, get hacked. Well, it’s like what happened with the mouse? The mouse, the mapproxy? It’s interesting, because I wouldn’t I would turn this back to because you’re talking about this volatility, and I’m thinking about cloud.

And because right, all you have to do is lose trust that Bitcoin is the transactions are accurate, and the value would evaporate overnight. If you felt like it could be manipulated by both certain parties, or was shown to be that which is a risk, because the way the calculations are done, and, and the interest so so but I was while you were talking about that I was thinking about, and I’m using Amazon as a proxy for the public cloud in general.

But I think it’s a it’s a good proxy. Because I think that the question becomes what would make Amazon if people start moving away from Amazon, it won’t necessarily be because they want to move to Microsoft or Google or Alibaba. It will be because they’ve lost faith in public cloud, or they found an alternative or something they’ve they’re taking back control. So either Amazon would, so you know, I’m going to discount the scenario of Amazon continues on course, and becomes becomes the just the behemoth and move towards what would cause that trend line to change or cause Amazon to not have as much power in the relationship and like reduced prices, and you know, for their margins to come down or become a utility.

And so what what, why do you use your car by AWS? Not? Sorry, AWS, I should answer and why do you think clouds? cloud service providers? Why do you think csps are not going to find their way to a position of being a utility and therefore called get called upon to be regulated as utilities? That’s one outcome. I think that they’re going to resist, resist that really, really hard. And, and, and I think that there’s a geopolitical challenge of AWS becoming a utility because it’s it’s transnational.

From that perspective. And so if it was going to be that the idea that we would have a international body regulating AWS, as a utility is laughable to me. We can’t do it as a single as a single geo, single political source. I mean, you’re absurd sort of trying.

18:48 - But they’re, they’re taking it from, you know, jurisdictional grounds. And maybe that’ll be what but starts the problem. But you know, I don’t I, I don’t see that the political winds, making the headrow the inroads that a commercial consumer power change would make well, so take a look at what the phone company or if we’re talking utilities, look at the phone company in the 50s 60s. They became a utility. They weren’t a utility, they became a utility because of national security and national security.

It Trumps a whole lot of international pushing, if you will. The other aspect with cloud and AWS is bierce on that is a similar problem with Bitcoin, the amount of resources being consumed right now. A friend who is in the trades, he’s an electrician. Everything he works on everything he’s been working on for the past two years has been data centers in San Jose, Santa Clara, actually, because Santa Clara has their own power company as opposed to pg&e.

But at some point, we can’t produce the power, we can’t produce the land space, the buildings and everything else, without the cost going up. So there’s going to be there, there is a point in the graph, where suddenly, cloud gets more expensive again, it will, and part of my my whole thinking on this is that the consumption models have been so baked in, that will just bear the cost, you know, that it’ll, it’ll add to the cost, but at this point, we would bear it.

I, I tend, and I think that there’s an interesting thought process that that says, what would be the maybe we don’t even need to figure out the trigger. But what would be the reason that people will start saying, you know what, I’m not going to be in public cloud anymore.

21:18 - I’m going to pull out I want power back, I want control of my IP technology, Destiny, right, I don’t want to sell my data. It’s not reliable, the security is not there. I have laws that prevent me from doing that. If If Amazon started having a downward trend in adoption rates, the infrastructure they have to maintain their building infrastructure, assuming a dramatic growth. Yeah, and the if they have to maintain that infrastructure, if things are level are down, they you know, all of a sudden that that infrastructure cost would become onerous here, the other revenue.

21:56 - So consider what hap, what’s happening in China right now. happens here, too. In China, China’s getting close to nationalizing most of their large companies. In the US, we actually sit there and say, national security, all all the cloud stuff or utilities, suddenly, people lose.

22:22 - international companies lose trust in these companies, because they’re controlled by governments.

22:32 - So Rocky, Rocky, Rocky gets to it right. And you started out, you started with this, Rob? And you said, what, you know, what’s the trigger for this? And it’s not immediate, right. But it’s, it does, it’s going to come down to trust.

22:45 - Right, I think that we’re starting, we’re starting to see that more and more is what’s going to drop people off. And we know what we, you know, we know, we know, where where some of the the early questions of or fears were, and we start to see those start to bear fruit. Do I just do people trust? AWS? Or, you know, or is your The bigger the bigger clouds with? You know, with their, you know, with something like security? Absolutely.

23:15 - Right? They absolutely do? Do they trust them from a, you know, from a business practice perspective? No, but they were the only places to go. Right now, that’s not always going to be the case, as most of this stuff gets commoditized and level and lovers out.

23:33 - So there is right, so then it’s going to come down to who do I trust, it’s not going to enter my enter my industry and knock me out.

23:44 - Right? Who do I trust, that’s not going to take out my you know, my entire reason for exit for my startup, at the next AWS reinvent, when ever we get those back, that becomes an issue, or, as we saw last night, which is absolutely horrific. Right from them. How do I know that as your is not going to share all of my data with all of their partners, so that they can then go and market to me? And if you haven’t seen if you haven’t seen corys thread on that, that is just absolutely scary.

So and then and then, which are the who’s who’s still going to be? Who do I trust to still be in business, which gets us to the whole VC? side side of the story.

24:35 - So I think Rocky is absolutely on, on target here. And that doesn’t even get into the geopolitical issues of trust. of who do I who do I who I trust at that point. So it’s more or who’s doing business with ice.

24:53 - It’s, I think these are fundamentals because it’s interesting because one of the things I go back to is the complexity Right, make just. And that becomes a resilience and reliability story from that.

25:06 - trust, trust. Trust is also trust is a lot of right trust is also choice and fit. When you start to look at it, right, everybody, what we’ve what we’ve seen in, you know, again, I’m going to 2013 what we’ve seen so far. And it’s and let’s, let’s be honest about this.

25:24 - It’s been a short journey in cloud so far. That’s true, right? Is everybody everybody jumps on now we’ll start to see as we head towards 2030. And we’ll see it early, you know, on the front end of it, people starting to pull back, and they’re gonna start to say, Okay, I got on here, I did all the stuff that they told me that I needed to do I reacted.

25:48 - Now let me reassess. What’s really right for me? Do I really need everything to be locked in at, you know, at the level of an AWS? What stuff do I need to still bring back in house? That’s a bet that that that’s more that’s more right to be brought back in, in house under my under my own umbrella? What do I need to move someplace else? Those are sort of, I think that’s the shift that we’re gonna start to see is a reassessment of all of the spend and infrastructure that people have put into Cloud AI.

26:21 - And I like when you say that, because we’re I mean, that’s, that’s what, you know, from a business perspective, I’m working to enable a trend line like that. I’m worried that we’ve, we’re just holding our noses and, and right, this is we keep coming back, it’s easier to hold your nose overlook the things that are inconvenient, and keep barreling forward.

26:46 - There’s the in order for somebody to make a decision, like what you’re describing. They there’s things that have to be mitigated out of that as a problem space, right.

27:00 - As it you know, interesting, yeah. Well, here’s, here’s one, you know, I think there’s always something to be found in historical cycles. And at one time, and I think it was Andrea, or Rocky, we’re talking about the, you know, sort of the telco analogies here. And that was one time nobody got nobody got fired. for buying IBM. Would we say the same thing in cloud right now? I say not right. Yeah, that’s right. You get fired for buying IBM unless you’re already an IBM customer.

You won’t get fired for buying Amazon. Amazon is what is become the IBM of the sun.

27:41 - Right? Right. Right now you won’t get fired for buying Amazon but is that the same thing? right are the patterns are the exact same? Yes. Well, that’s what it I mean, this is it where when we talk about Amazon saturation, Amazon has reached 100% saturation for companies. Right? They’re using Amazon whether they know it or not in the US in the in the US right.

28:11 - And they’re they’re struggling to maintain to attain or maintain relative position in Europe fully boarded up is that because your as your cashiers kicking their butt in Europe and GCP is getting more attention from the public sector.

28:35 - And when when you start to drop in the geopolitical stuff that’s when you see people like oh VH that are positioning themselves as the European hyperscale Cloud.

28:45 - Exactly. Or you have the the EU efforts like Gaia x, which is crying Yeah. And you know, I whether that will be successful or yet another, you know, large smoking crater that the EU often funds for long periods of time and you know, doesn’t show up with anything that didn’t.

29:12 - I didn’t work around internet to I try not to chuckle when people make in trade.

29:17 - Interestingly though, right? Because we make the telcos are the same thing. Anytime we talk about edge we like joke about the telcos not knowing what they’re doing. And we hear I feel like in some of the cases, especially around just plain infrastructures and service, the the actual understanding of what that entails is stabilized. And so the, you know, the idea that, you know, Amazon, AWS and Azure and Google have huge first mover advantages, but those first mover advantages could easily be gobbled up in the next in the next five years.

Yeah, I mean, it’s true to buying actually buying the silicon. But at&t and Verizon had first mover advantage and bye. Bye What a century over T Mobile.

30:19 - Right? Well, back to my Walmart Walmart had first mover advantage from a distribution system, right? Sears good qualified first mover advantage and they should now well Sears Sears was an amazing catalog company, right? They they were the they were the catalog. Yeah, they really forgot that history didn’t say History repeats, there’s a reason for the phrase, well, that gives you that actually makes you real, it makes me feel like Amazon will win forever.

31:00 - So why is Amazon not winning? In Europe rich, that’s really interesting.

31:06 - Um, couple things. First of all, what Microsoft is doing, what Azure is doing in Europe, taking advantage of the fact that so many, mid and large enterprises are already still very heavily invested in Microsoft, as you know, their enterprise software. And what Microsoft has done better than any of the others is figured out how to sell they’ve put a lot of money behind their their marketing and their sales. It is.

I mean, it’s, it’s awesome what they’ve done. So it’s a smooth, and to Mike’s point about trust. People have come to trust, Microsoft, possibly just because it’s familiar and they’re used to it.

32:10 - But there’s a there’s a trust level. So if what somebody if Azure comes to you and says, digital transformation, no problem, you’re already, you know, on the smooth path, we can make it smoother. Look at all the complexity look good. All everything else that comes along with moving to to AWS where we’re safe, we’re safer.

32:41 - That story works better in Europe first works a lot better.

32:45 - Okay. This is actually a trend line that I’ve been bemoaning a bit with the Kubernetes stuff.

32:51 - But let me explain this. Once you’ve once you’ve got a Yes, in an in an organization, it’s much easier to to grow that yes. So if you’re already using this was Asher’s brilliant move. what they said was they said if you’re a Microsoft customer, you’re an Azure customer. And you consume Azure like crazy out of that Microsoft account you already have you don’t have to ask permission to anybody, right? You already have it go go go.

33:21 - This is this is better than swiping the credit card. You know, you know, the the the division leader or the you know, small group leader saying, fine, I had it with it. I’m going to swipe my credit card. I have signature authority. Great. We’re gonna we’re going to go to AWS it yet let me look at look at entry points. Right? Once it’s once it’s in, right and office is already in right teams is already in. Once it’s in, sorry, it you’re taking it back, you’re taking a backseat to to the business on that doesn’t it doesn’t have to be better.

It’s the organizational friction is much bigger.

34:02 - And this was like so I’ve been watching like the CNC f landscape. And I’m like, what the EFF is going on. With this just explosion of little projects or little things like glomming on to Kubernetes I’m like, that is not the way to solve this problem. Why are you doing it inside of Kubernetes as opposed to solving the problem right there, we’re making some very complex stuff. And I’ll stand my ground on this to the nth degree, making very complex stuff inside of Kubernetes.

Because the reality is that organizations are all saying yes to Kubernetes. So if I want to do something else, if I do it as a Kubernetes operator, or Kubernetes service or Kubernetes, whatever, I’ve they’ve already said yes to Kubernetes.

34:44 - They don’t realize that whatever bespoke other thing they’re adding now that’s an ecosystem and it’s potentially Great. So as a product company, I could say, you know, what, if I have a Kubernetes thing, I’m gonna walk into every company because, you know, they’ve already said yes to Kubernetes. I’m going to add on I’m not new thing. And that’s that’s how these things start to get built up. It’s funny because it does work in the reverse, too, is something as soon as something becomes toxic, you know, solar winds.

The whole, that whole house of cards can crumble really fast. It’s an interesting. It’s funny to think think of this because as much as we feel like these technology companies are completely locked in powerhouses, it’s it is possible that the thread could unravel on them faster than we’re thinking. And then Europe is a great example for that.

35:35 - It’ll be also interesting to see what what actually is made of the fact that we’re looking at what effectively are two internets, two global internets, Oh, God. You know, China is creating something of a size and have a, you know, of a power that is not going to be interconnected with the rest of the world. It’s going to for at least for the the near future, operate in in isolation. And it’s a it’s an enclosed and contained environment on so many different levels.

I you know, right now, I think we have so little insight into what moves things there how that’s how that’s going to play out.

36:35 - Very, very. Yeah, I think that’s actually from what little we’ve seen what few windows we have on it. I think even the the Chinese corporations and the Chinese entrepreneurs have very little insight. It’s possible that there is a internecine warfare going on within the Politburo. And there’s, this is all just something that’s a side effect of politics, but we don’t know. And neither do the large companies in China.

37:15 - Yeah. No, that’s absolutely right. Rocky, I mean, jack Ma, you know, going head to head with the the people, the the plla and other parts of the Chinese power structure. That is going to be an interesting one to watch.

37:39 - Oh, yes. On YouTube basically disappeared. Is there anything you know, he reappeared? He reappeared.

37:46 - Oh, did he? Okay, I didn’t see that. Yeah. But yes, he but the the PLC is downgraded and tremendously. They also just moved against Tesla. And there There seems to be moves against other of the large corporations and whatnot. So there’s, there’s a lot going on. And it’s both political and economic. Technically, it’s the tech technocracy is in turmoil at the moment.

38:19 - And I think we’re getting into and there’s an interesting thread, let me pull this thread for a second. And then I’m watching the clock because we’re gonna have to wrap up. Because we’re, I was just listening to news reports about the lack of chips dry impacting production of cars, in a material way. And is, as we continue to see economic aggression with China, it’s possible that we would re re onshore in actually I think we’re gonna see this we’re gonna see re offshoring of industries.

For for civil defense and, and isolation reasons. Out of this, including silicon fabs and things like that, that are, they’re going to be high incentives for that which could actually create gluts of silicon availability in the market that can have pretty dramatic, I’m getting nods from rich.

39:20 - So that’s the kind of thing that I would point to Mike when somebody says, end of the end of the pandemic, you know, things move, you know, back to the way they work. There is the there are some pretty strong forces at work here. And when you know, they’re, they’re bigger than my brain can deal with.

39:46 - It’s interesting, but the chips shortage is real. Part of it is due to the automakers Miss forecasting the demand for cars based on on You know, they’re projections and releasing availability. But it was already a tight market and under provisioned. Which is interesting, because some when I think about cloud, one of the things that, you know, we don’t have any real insight to is, is how much capacity is actually being overbuilt in cloud infrastructures? And what would happen if there was a resource limitation from that perspective.

And now, and then all you need is a is a real major breakthrough in energy production, nuclear, nuclear fission, breakthroughs and solar, you know, and that changes the the calculus as well.

40:42 - Right. But I mean, apparently, GM has a breakthrough in battery tech, for cars, and that battery tech could translate into, you know, the solar might not be on the panel side, it might be on the storage side, or wind on the street, aka storage, like the ability to store electrons could transform things in very dramatic ways. The the bow that I would put on this, is that, as much as I’ve been trying to pull our conversation into the consumers getting more power in the cloud discussion, the none of these scenarios translated into the consumers waking up and deciding they wanted to change the cloud scenario.

Every scenario we’ve had has really been some externality changing the industry, that that then let the consumers have more power. Who who qualifies as a consumer? Rob? I mean, the company’s paying, there’s, there’s layers of it, you’re right about that.

41:41 - But that that is kind of where where I’m going with this notion of the, you know, kind of the colonization at the top where they’re, they’re literally not manufacturing, they are, they are creating, you know, an Imperium, you know, basically colonial colonial outposts. And some of those are big goddamn companies. But they are at the, if not the beck and call, they’re certainly at the mercy of some of their major sources of big tech.

42:21 - It’s like financial Institute, it’s the financial industry. The real powerhouses are the large companies, and the traders, and consumers are just there. They’re actually one of the products. They’re the other.

42:37 - Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the degree the cloud providers are recognizing this already. like Amazon, with their with their with their Graviton processors. They are starting to build their own infrastructure. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So don’t want to be at the at the behest of, again, as you said, that they are.

43:00 - Yeah, the question is, you know, where do they where do they end up? You know, are they on the at the mercy? Are they are they become Ming the merciless? You know, it’s a, it’s a tough one.

43:15 - That’s the nature of these discussions. Alright, everybody, we are at the top of the hour, I actually feel like we moved the ball down the field. In this case, not maybe a tom brady ask move. But I think we did. We did advanced the conversation in our reference.

43:33 - And I was dangerous when I just paid in my $10. For the week with my one. We moved in a lot further than he moved it yesterday walking out of the bar.

43:45 - single best video. When you’ve got that when you’ve got two hands full of Super Bowl rings and a supermodel wife. He’s like, yep, I don’t care what people think. His handler, his handlers, his handlers failed bad yesterday.

44:04 - All right, everybody. Thank Thank you all.

44:07 - I’ll see you next week. I Wow, that was great. We really had a robust discussion about what could go wrong. This is the thing that we’ve been talking around quite a bit of what forces transformation to a completely new technology based and it’s interesting, we didn’t think it was the customers deciding they didn’t like it. But something else some externality or or bigger change in the market. They would force this type of seismic shift.

We’re gonna keep talking about it. So come back. We’ll talk to you then. Thanks. .