Four Mothers Q&A - Boston Israeli Film Festival 2021

00:31 - WELCOME TO OUR THIRD ANNUAL FESTIVAL AND TO OUR INTERNATIONAL WOMEN’S DAY SCREENING OF FOUR MOTHERS, ARBA EIMAHOT.

00:40 - I WANT TO THANK OUR FESTIVAL SPONSORS, THE FESTIVAL’S PRESENTING SPONSOR, THE FINE FAMILY FOUNDATION AND CJP.

00:49 - AND ALSO THE IAC AND THE CONSULATE OF ISRAEL TO NEW ENGLAND AND A SPECIAL THANKS TO MENTION THAT THE BOSTON WOMEN’S FESTIVAL AND THE CONSULATE AND BOSTON JEWISH FILM ARE PARTNERING ON A SCREENING NEXT WEEK AFTER THIS FESTIVAL IS OVER. IT’S A FILM CALLED HOPE I’M IN THE FRAME ABOUT MICHAL BAT-ADAM WHO WAS ONE OF ISRAEL’S FIRST FEMALE FILM DIRECTORS AND WILL HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THAT ON MARCH 18TH.

SO PLEASE STAY TUNED WITH THE BOSTON ISRAELI FILM FESTIVAL TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THAT EVENT.

01:22 - THIS FESTIVAL CONTINUES THROUGH MARCH 10. THAT’S WEDNESDAY. TOMORROW NIGHT WE WILL HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH LEVI ZINI ABOUT HIS FILM WHICH IS CALLED MENACHEM BEGIN: PEACE AND WAR, AND ON WEDNESDAY WE’LL BE HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH SHAI AVIVI, THE LEAD ACTOR IN HERE WE ARE.

01:47 - JOINING US TONIGHT WE ARE SO PLEASED TO WELCOME DR. RACHEL MADPIS BEN DOR WHO YOU WILL OBVIOUSLY RECOGNIZE FROM THE FILM FOUR MOTHERS. SHE IS A FOUNDER AND ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE FOUR MOTHERS MOVEMENT.

01:59 - SHE IS ALSO A BIBLICAL AND TALMUDIC SCHOLAR AND WRITER.

02:03 - TODAY SHE WILL BE INTERVIEWED BY DR. LISA FISHBAYN JOFFE WHO IS THE SHULAMIT REINHARZ DIRECTOR OF THE HADASSAH-BRANDEIS INSTITUTE AT BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY WHICH IS FOCUSED ON JEWISH WOMEN’S AND GENDER STUDIES. IN ABOUT 25 MINUTES, LISA WILL BE ASKING SOME QUESTIONS THAT ARE COMING FROM YOU THE AUDIENCE. SO IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS, PLEASE PUT THEM INTO THE Q&A SECTION AND LISA WILL GET TO THOSE AFTER HER INITIAL CONVERSATION WITH RACHEL.

02:32 - AND IF YOU NEED CLOSED CAPTIONING, JUST CHECK THE CC BUTTON ON THE BOTTOM AND YOU’LL HAVE CAPTIONING FOLLOWING ALONG WITH YOU TONIGHT. THANK YOU, LISA AND RACHEL FOR BEING HERE.

02:47 - THANK YOU, ITS A REAL PLEASURE >> Lisa: PERHAPS WE CAN START WITH ASKING ABOUT THE MOMENTS.

02:57 - YOU HAVE THE FILM THAT HAS JUST COME OUT AND YOU HAVE A BOOK THAT YOU’VE WRITTEN ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THE FOUR MOTHERS THAT IS COMING OUT THIS SPRING.

03:07 - WHY WAS THE TIME RIPE NOW TO TELL THIS STORY? >> Rachel: BECAUSE I HAVE TIME. AND IT’S SOMETHING THAT I PROMISED MYSELF THAT I’M GOING TO CLEAN THE TABLE ONE DAY. I HAVE SO MANY DOCUMENTS – I – NOT ONLY I CAME UP WITH THIS CRAZY IDEA AND DECIDED THAT IF I’M NOT GOING TO SLEEP AT NIGHT BECAUSE MY SON IS FIGHTING A WAR THAT WE ARE ACTUALLY MORE IN DANGER, THAT THE REST OF THE PARLIAMENT WON’T SLEEP WITH ME.

SO I STARTED TO BE A TROUBLEMAKER THEN. AND THEN I CONTINUED WITH BEING A CHAIRPERSON FOR THIS MOVEMENT UNTIL THE DAY IT WAS DISBANDED. THE MOST SUCCESSFUL DAY, THE DAY WE LEFT LEBANON IN PEACE.

04:00 - SAYING THAT OUR OFFICIAL NAME IS FOUR MOTHERS, NOT THAT WE WERE FOUR IN NUMBER. IT’S A MYTHOLOGICAL SYMBOLIC NAME.

04:08 - BEING RACHEL OF COURSE AND MY BACKGROUND IN JUDAIC STUDIES, SO IT WAS FOUR MOTHERS – LEAVING LEBANON IN PEACE.

04:17 - AND AFTER 20 YEARS HAVE DECIDED THAT I NEED TO SIT DOWN AND TAKE ALL THE PUBLICATION I DID DURING THIS YEAR – I PARTICIPATE IN THE FILM CONFERENCES IN ACADEMIA AND DECIDED THAT I NEED TO EXPOSE THE DOCUMENTS THAT I HAVE IN MY ARCHIVE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

04:45 - AND ESPECIALLY TO ISRAELI SOCIETY TO MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THAT YOU CAN MAKE A PROTEST AS JUST REGULAR PEOPLE, WAKE UP IN MORNING.

04:56 - DECIDE THAT YOU’RE GOING TO CHANGE SOMETHING THAT’S PAINFUL AND NOT RIGHT.

05:01 - AND YOU CAN DO IT. AND I WANT TO SHOW HOW WE DID IT. AND WHAT WAS THE REACTION AND HOW THEY – WE WERE IGNORED OR – BELITTLED -ALL OF THIS.

05:16 - >> Lisa: SO LET’S TALK ABOUT THE NAME. SO THE NAME IS FOUR MOTHERS – LEAVE LEBANON IN PEACE. WAS THAT A NAME YOU CHOSE? WAS THAT A NAME THAT WAS GIVEN TO YOU BY THE MEDIA, BY OTHERS? >> Rachel: SO IT’S INTERESTING IN THE ARCHIVE YOU CAN SEE THE GRADUAL GROWTH OF THE NAME. AT THE BEGINNING IT WAS REFERRING TO THE NAMES WE WERE CALLED, ACTUALLY.

05:42 - SO WE WERE CALLED THE MOTHERS FROM THE NORTH, THE PEOPLE FROM THE NORTH, THE GOOD FENCE AND OTHER NAMES.

05:49 - AND THEN AS – I’M TELLING ALL THESE STORIES IN THE BOOK. IN THE BOOK OF COURSE I WILL MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT, THAT I READ AN ARTICLE IN THE KIBBUTZ NEWSPAPER.

06:09 - I’M FROM A KIBBUTZ IN THE GALILEE, NOT FAR FROM THE BORDER. WE WERE EXPERIENCING THE WAR IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN WAS KNOWN IN THE MEDIA, THAT WE ARE BEING ATTACKED AND THEN WE RESPOND BACK.

06:27 - ACTUALLY IT WAS THE OTHER WAY. OUR SOLDIERS WERE – GOT IN TROUBLE IN LEBANON AND THEN THEY HAVE CASUALTIES IN LEBANON AND THEN LEBANON WHOEVER FOUGHT AGAINST US AT THAT TIME PUT US IN BOMB SHELTERS. SO I WAS GOING TO EXPOSE IT, AND I CALLED THE AUTHOR OF A CERTAIN ARTICLE IN THE KIBBUTZ NEWSPAPER.

06:58 - WANTING TO SHARE WITH HIM MY SAME EXPERIENCE BECAUSE HE WAS WRITING ABOUT IT. AND HE WROTE IN THIS ARTICLE HOW COME YOU MOTHERS ARE LETTING YOUR CHILDREN GO – YOU ARE TAKING CARE OF THEM UNTIL THEY ARE BEING 18. HOW COME YOU ARE LETTING THEM GO INTO ANY WAR, NO QUESTION ASKED? AND IT’S EXACTLY HOW I FELT, BUT I DIDN’T DARE TO SAY IT BECAUSE IT’S A BIG NO NO IN ISRAEL.

07:25 - ESPECIALLY WHERE I’M COMING FROM FROM THE KIBBUTZIM. AND YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PROUD AND WE WERE EDUCATED – AND I GUESS WE CONTINUED THAT – GOING TO WAR AND SACRIFICING THEIR LIFE. I CALLED HIM. I WAS TEACHING AT THE COLLEGE ON THE BORDER. AND ONE DAY AFTER MY CLASS I WAS SHARING WITH HIM HOW I EMPATHIZED WITH WHAT HE SAID AND I WAS SO SURPRISED THAT A MAN WROTE IT – A SOLDIER.

07:58 - AND HE SAID I HAVE TO COME AND MEET WITH YOU. AND I REFUSED TO MEET WITH HIM BECAUSE I SAID I DON’T HAVE ANYTHING TO TELL YOU. WHY DO YOU WANT TO DRIVE ALL THE WAY TO THE GALILEE TO MEET WITH ME? AND I WAS ALWAYS SHOCKED WHEN THEY WANTED TO COME AND TALK TO ME.

08:14 - I DON’T HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY. I’M JUST A REGULAR PERSON.

08:17 - I’M JUST SAYING IT’S WRONG. AND LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE THAT WE SEE HERE. HE INSISTED AND THEN HE SAID I’M COMING. SO I CALLED MY FRIEND AND SAID, LOOK, ONE CORRESPONDENT WANTS TO COME AND I DON’T HAVE ANYTHING TO TELL HIM. PLEASE JOIN ME.

08:35 - OTHER MOTHERS THAT – MY SON’S CLASSMATE’S MOTHER. AND ONE AFTERNOON ON A WEEKDAY, TWO OF MY FRIENDS WERE AVAILABLE.

08:46 - THEY CAME TO MY HOUSE. ON THE WAY THEY CONVINCED ANOTHER WOMAN THAT THEY MET AND THEY WERE THREE AND I WAS FOUR.

08:55 - AND IT WAS A WEEK BEFORE PASSOVER. AND BOOM, WE GOT THE NAME FOUR MOTHERS.

09:02 - SO THEN WE HAVE TO DECIDE – AND IT WAS VERY CATCHY. SO THEN WE HAVE TO DECIDE IF WE’RE GOING WITH IT. AND THERE IS A LOT OF DEBATE TO CONTINUE WITH THE MOTHERLY – SUCH A GENDER AND SPECIFIC CATEGORIZE WITH ALL THE PROBLEMS OF BEING MOTHERS AND ALL THE CONNOTATIONS. AND WE END UP IN THE OFFICIAL DAY OF – WHEN THE MOVEMENT WAS ESTABLISHED, WHEN WE BECAME AN ASSOCIATION TO GO WITH FOUR MOTHERS BECAUSE THIS WAS THE NAME THAT WAS GIVEN TO US – AND LEAVE LEBANON IN PEACE.

09:44 - AND SO THIS WAS OUR DECISION AND AFTER THAT WE HAD TO FIGHT A LOT AGAINST THE NAME.

09:51 - ALTHOUGH IT GAVE US A LOT OF ATTENTION.

09:55 - >> Lisa: SO IT’S A POWERFUL IMAGE, AND YOU’VE WRITTEN IN YOUR SCHOLARLY WORK ABOUT YOUR ACTIVISM THAT YOU WERE CONSCIOUSLY PLAYING WITH THESE IMAGES, BOTH IN ISRAELI SECULAR CULTURE AND IN RELIGIOUS SYMBOLISM IN DESCRIBING AND ELABORATING THE MOVEMENT.

10:20 - CAN YOU TALK A BIT ABOUT WHAT THE IMAGES WERE AND HOW YOU WERE SUBVERTING THEM? WHAT NOTIONS OF MOTHERS WERE YOU ENGAGING WITH? >> Rachel: IT’S DEFINITELY A VERY LONG AND IMPORTANT CONVERSATION AND WE CAN JUST CATCH ON THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG HERE.

10:44 - BECAUSE IT’S DEFINITELY A LOADED ISSUE. LOADED, I MEAN THEY SHOOT AT US SO BADLY.

10:56 - THEY WERE TRYING EVERYTHING AND USING GENDER AND MOTHERHOOD APPARENTLY IT’S SHOOTING INTO OUR STOMACH.

11:07 - YOU ARE HYSTERICAL, THE FIRST THING. AND THIS CAME FROM THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE, THIS CAME FROM THE GOVERNMENT, AND IT WAS STUPID. A LOT OF COMMENTS ABOUT HOW WE DON’T UNDERSTAND AND WE ARE STUPID, AND WE ARE LETTING OUR MOTHERLY EMOTIONS TO MAKE THE DECISION. AND THE GOVERNMENT OR THE COUNTRY CANNOT FOLLOW HYSTERICAL MOTHERS. BY THE WAY, THIS WAS ONE – ANOTHER REASON WHY I DIDN’T WANT TO TALK WITH THIS CORRESPONDENT BECAUSE I SAID ONE MOTHER – IMMEDIATELY, IT WOULD BE TAKEN TO, OH, SHE’S WEIRD.

SHE’S CRAZY. SHE’S ANXIOUS – ALL OF THIS. SHE’S NOT WILLING TO SACRIFICE HER SON. SHE’S A TRAITOR, WHICH WAS COMING.

12:01 - AND SO I ALWAYS WANTED TO SHOW THAT WE ARE – IT’S MORE THAN ONE MOTHER. A LOT OF MEN, INCLUDING GENERALS THAT WERE RELEASED FROM THE ARMY. WE INSISTED WE WON’T HAVE ANYONE IN DUTY BECAUSE THE ARMY IS SUPPOSED TO DO THEIR JOB SEPARATELY FROM THE POLITICS.

12:26 - SOMETIMES THEY WERE CONFUSED ABOUT IT. AND WE SAID NO, NO, NO, WE’RE NOT CROSSING THIS LINE IN A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

12:32 - WE HAD TO INSIST ON THAT, THAT THE ARMY IS OUT OF THE DISCUSSION.

12:38 - SO WE HAVE TO PUT IN THE FRONT ALSO PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT MOTHERS TO VOICE OUR OPINIONS.

12:46 - SO THIS HAPPENED IN THE BEGINNING. DO YOU WANT ME TO CONTINUE ON THAT OR DO YOU WANT TO ASK ME ANOTHER QUESTION IN REGARDS – >> Lisa: IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A STORY. SO CONTINUE. I HAVE MORE QUESTIONS.

13:03 - >> Rachel: I GUESS I’M GOING FURTHER TO THE NEXT QUESTION.

13:06 - SO WHEN WE LET MEN SPEAK FOR US AT OUR EVENTS AND RALLIES, CERTAIN FEMINIST GROUPS, ESPECIALLY THE ONE FROM HAIFA, THESE ARE FOLLOWERS OF MAYBE SOMEONE YOU’RE FAMILIAR WITH.

13:28 - I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE DOCUMENTS AND ARCHIVE IN BRANDEIS, MARCIA FREEDMAN SHE’S AN AMERICAN FEMINIST WHO MADE ALIYAH TO ISRAEL IN THE 70’S, AND DURING THE 80’S SHE WORKED AT HAIFA UNIVERSITY AND MANAGED TO GET A LOT OF STUDENTS AND WOMEN THERE TO LEARN ABOUT FEMINIST MOVEMENTS. AND THEY ADOPTED THE AMERICAN FEMINIST – FEMINISM THAT MARCIA BROUGHT TO THEM.

13:59 - WHICH IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH IN ISRAELI SOCIETY. YOU HAVE TO ADOPT THAT CERTAIN FEMINISTS WILL FIT THE DISCUSSION. AND SO THEY WERE VERY UPSET AT US THAT WE ARE NOT ENOUGH IN THE FRONT.

14:17 - WE WERE IN THE FRONT ALL THE TIME. THEY INTERVIEWED US.

14:21 - THEY WERE TRYING – AND MOST OF THE TIME THEY WERE TRYING TO PUT US IN A PLACE ACROSS THE TABLE FROM GENERALS SAYING YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND.

14:31 - SO YOU NEED TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN TALK SHOWS AND EVENTS AND RALLIES AND PANELS TO CONVINCE THEM, I’M LEGITIMATE.

14:40 - I HAVE A BRAIN. I HAVE A WOMB AND I CAN TALK. WE SPENT SO MUCH TIME ON THAT. AND WHILE WE WERE DOING THAT, OUR BOYS – OUR SOLDIERS WERE IN DANGER. AND WHILE THEY WERE IN DANGER AS I TOLD YOU BEFORE BECAUSE THEY GOT IN TROUBLE IN LEBANON – THIS WAR ZONE BECAME EVEN WORSE THAN TO BEGIN WITH.

15:08 - SO WE WERE TRYING TO SAVE, BUT WHAT DO WE UNDERSTAND? SO WE HAD TO QUOTE DOCUMENTS AND BOOKS AND RESEARCH OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW TO BE WITH A MILITARY BACKGROUND AND THEREFORE THEY CAN BE MORE RELIABLE THAN US.

15:36 - SO WE DECIDED TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY OF THEM – I’M SO PROUD OF THEM – WILLING TO TALK FOR US, A MOVEMENT THAT’S KNOWN BY THE NAME FOUR MOTHERS. IMAGINE A GENERAL THAT’S RETIRED FROM LEBANON, JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, COMING AND SPEAKING IN BEHALF OF US.

15:55 - I FELT IT’S AN AMAZING ACHIEVEMENT. AND JUST TO PUT WOMEN IN THE FRONT DIDN’T WORK IN THE BEGINNING.

16:02 - >> Lisa: SO FEMINISM – IF I’M HEARING YOU CORRECTLY – WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DEVELOP WAS A FEMINISM THAT YOU FELT WAS MORE SUITED TO THE ISRAELI CONTEXT? >> Rachel: YES, AND TO ESPECIALLY TO THIS LIFE AND DEATH SITUATION.

16:19 - WE ARE IN A WAR. EVERY DAY THAT WE DON’T GET OUT OF LEBANON, WE HAVE MORE CASUALTIES, AND IT’S GETTING CLOSER TO HOME.

16:28 - MY SON’S PHOTO ALBUM HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE – 18 YEARS OLD TO 20 – THAT ARE FALLING AROUND HIM. LITERALLY FROM THE GROUP – FROM THE UNIT HE WAS IN.

16:45 - AND WE KNOW IT’S LIKE ROULETTE. JUST A MATTER OF TIME. SO IT’S URGENT. AND NOBODY ACTUALLY – I DON’T KNOW TO SAY NOBODY – BUT IT WAS NOT AS URGENT. IT WAS ALREADY – WE STARTED IT AFTER THE HELICOPTER CRASH. IT WAS 15 YEARS AFTER MY SON’S FATHER – MY HUSBAND FOUGHT IN THE SAME WAR AND BARELY MADE IT PHYSICALLY.

17:11 - I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT EMOTIONAL WOUNDS, WHICH IS ANOTHER STORY.

17:16 - BUT WHAT WE ARE LEARNING HERE THAT WE HAVE TO GRADUALLY MAKE OUR WAY – MAKE OUR WAY INTO THE DISCUSSION TABLE, BECAUSE WE WERE BENT ON THIS TABLE BECAUSE OF – YEAH, GENDER ISSUES THAT WE – WOMEN ARE NOT PART OF SECURITY TOPICS, DISCUSSIONS.

17:48 - SO WE GRADUALLY MADE IT INTO THE TABLE AND THEN THEY WERE FASCINATED BY US BECAUSE WE KNEW MORE THAN A LOT OF PARLIAMENT MEMBERS, OBVIOUSLY.

18:01 - ONE, WE LIVED ON THE BORDER. SECOND, WE LEARNED THE TOPIC, AND WE CAN LEARN, YOU KNOW.

18:06 - WE CAN BE KNOWLEDGEABLE AS WELL AS ANY OTHER PERSON.

18:10 - ALREADY AT THAT TIME YOU HAD WOMEN DOCTORS, WOMEN IN ACADEMIA – BY THE WAY, WHEN I ENTERED THE TALMUD MY PHD FROM THE HEBREW UNIVERSITY IN JERUSALEM, I GOT THE SAME TREATMENT EVEN WORSE BECAUSE I’M SECULAR FROM THE ACADEMIA.

18:28 - THEY DIDN’T LET ME IN. BECAUSE I DIDN’T HAVE THE RIGHT GENDER, BACKGROUND AND SO ON.

18:41 - SO YOU HAVE TO FORCE YOUR WAY IN AND ONE DAY ACTUALLY I TAUGHT AT THE HARTMAN INSTITUTE IN JERUSALEM IF YOU KNOW THIS PLACE. SO AFTER THAT I WENT TO GET AN AWARD OF WOMEN WHO MADE THE CHANGE BY ALICE SHELBY AND I WROTE MY PRESENTATION – I WROTE ON A TALMUD PAGE MY WORDS JUST BECAUSE IT WAS IN MY HAND, AND I ACTUALLY COMPARED BETWEEN THE WAY WOMEN WERE ADDRESSED IN TALMUDIC TIME BY THE SAGES WHEN THEY WERE TRYING TO LEAVE THEIR DOMESTIC SPHERE AND INTERFERE IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE AND BRING THEIR OPINION TO THE MILITARY SECURITY DISCUSSIONS THAT BENDED US.

19:37 - ACTUALLY I’M USING THE SAME TERMINOLOGY. IT WAS INTERESTING.

19:42 - >> Lisa: I THINK IT’S REALLY POWERFUL THE WAY YOU SHOW YOU CAN USE THE EXPERTISE YOU DEVELOPED IN YOUR PH. D. WHICH WAS ON WOMEN’S LEADERSHIP IN TALMUD, AND USED THAT AS A BASIS FOR MAKING THESE KIND OF ARGUMENTS THAT INVOKE THESE RELIGIOUS IMAGES OF WOMEN AS WELL AS THE SECULAR IMAGES OF WOMEN.

20:03 - YOU TALKED A BIT ABOUT HOW THE REST OF THE ISRAELI WOMEN’S MOVEMENT RESPONDED TO YOU. I WONDER IF I COULD ASK YOU A BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.

20:15 - FIRST, WHAT WERE YOUR INFLUENCES? THE WOMEN IN BLACK HAD BEEN OPERATING IN A PUBLIC WAY SINCE 1988. WERE THERE OTHER WOMEN’S GROUPS, EITHER DOMESTICALLY OR INTERNATIONALLY, LIKE THE MOTHERS OF PLAZA DE MAYO THAT YOU LOOKED TO FOR FINDING EXAMPLES FOR SUCCESSFUL STRATEGIES OR ARGUMENTS? >> Rachel: THAT’S A VERY INTERESTING QUESTION. LET ME START WITH THE ARGENTINIAN WOMEN. THERE WAS A REALLY WONDERFUL RESEARCH, MANY RESEARCHERS ARE NOT SO GREAT BECAUSE THEY DON’T SEE THE ARCHIVE.

THEY DON’T SEE DOCUMENTS. I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MEDIA, BUT THIS ONE DID A GOOD JOB OF TRACKING WHO WE WERE ACTUALLY.

20:59 - BECAUSE OUR IMAGE WAS SO FAR ON THE MEDIA FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE, SOMETIME IT WAS OKAY, SOMETIME NOT SO.

21:08 - WE FELL MORE INTO THE CINDERELLA IMAGE THAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR – MOTHERLY, EMOTIONAL AND SO ON, NOT SO MUCH EDUCATED.

21:18 - SO THIS RESEARCH FROM THE TRUMAN INSTITUTE IN JERUSALEM COMPARED BETWEEN US AND THE ARGENTINIAN WOMEN. IT’S VERY, VERY – IT WAS TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH. IT’S WRITTEN IN BOTH ENGLISH AND HEBREW.

21:32 - SO I SUGGEST YOU PICK IT UP. SHE DID A VERY GOOD JOB ABOUT IT.

21:38 - SO, NO, WE’RE NOT INFLUENCED BY THEM. I WAS INFLUENCED MORE BY – FROM THE VIETNAM PROTESTS. WOMEN IN BLACK WAS ACTUALLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO.

21:56 - BECAUSE WOMEN IN BLACK WERE – THEY DID WHAT WAS FIT FOR THEM. THEY SAT EVERY FRIDAY IN DIFFERENT PLACES AROUND THE COUNTRY, MAINLY JERUSALEM, AND PROTESTED VERY SILENTLY.

22:17 - MORE THE TYPICAL WOMEN THE SOCIETY COULD SWALLOW, THEY DID NOT CAUSE ANY ANTAGONISM.

22:24 - THEY DID NOT SHAKE THE SYSTEM AS WHAT WE WERE TRYING DO.

22:28 - AND WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO – I DON’T KNOW TRYING TO TO – I WAS JUST BEING MYSELF.

22:36 - I DON’T THINK I WAS TRYING TO DO ANYTHING. I WAS BEING MYSELF, BUT MORE MANIPULATIVE.

22:42 - EVERY TIME I LEARNED HOW POLITICS WORKS, AND I UNDERSTOOD THAT, I NEED TO FIND PEOPLE – PARLIAMENT MEMBERS THAT MAKE THE DECISION INTERESTS. WHAT WILL SERVE THEM IN THEIR POLITICAL VENUE, IN THEIR FUTURE? SO IT WAS TARGETING THEM TO MAKE A DECISION THAT WILL BENEFIT THEIR POLITICAL CAREER. I UNDERSTOOD THAT.

23:06 - OTHER THAN THAT I WAS BEING MYSELF, VERY FORCEFUL.

23:10 - LIKE GOING AFTER ANYTHING I WANT IN LIFE, LIKE WHAT I DO USUALLY, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT’S ABOUT MY LIFE AND MY CHILDREN BEING IN DANGER.

23:20 - SO I DO WHAT EVERY MOTHER WOULD DO. ACTUALLY, I WAS TALKING ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK THAT I AM WHAT THEY CALL IN ISRAEL SECOND GENERATION FOR THE HOLOCAUST – FOR HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS.

23:32 - SO I WAS TALKING ABOUT – AND BEING GROWING UP IN A FAMILY OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, SOLE SURVIVOR, DEFINITELY SHAPED ME TO BE THIS KIND OF FIGHTER.

23:48 - I’M FIGHTING ALWAYS FOR MY LIFE. THEY CALL IT INTERGENERATIONAL SYNDROME, LIKE YOU ARE IN THE HOLOCAUST.

23:59 - SO I NEED SOMETHING TO HOLD MYSELF BACK AND SAY, NO, IT’S NOT THE CASE. SO THE NIGHT OF THE HELICOPTER DISASTER, IT BROUGHT ME BACK TO THIS TIME OF THE HOLOCAUST AND I SAID I NEED TO SAVE MY FAMILY.

24:14 - SO I WAS A LOT MORE – I WOULDN’T SAY – I WOULD SAY I WAS A LOT MORE ASSERTIVE. I WAS FIGHTING FOR IT. AND THEREFORE I GOT KNOWLEDGE. I DID EVERYTHING I HAD TO DO AS A MOTHER. WHAT I DIDN’T DO – AND I’M WRITING ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK – IS WHEN I’M ACTUALLY SERVING MY SON’S UNIT – MY SON’S UNIT WAS A COMMANDO UNIT, AN ELITE COMMANDO UNIT, AND THEY WERE LOCATED NOT FAR FROM OUR HOUSE, AND WE WERE THE AND EVERYTIME THEY NEEDED SOMETHING FOR THE WAR – AND IT’S A VERY INTERESTING LIST.

I’M WRITING ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK. WE ACTUALLY WERE HELPING THEM TO GET ALL THE LAST MINUTE THINGS THAT THEY NEEDED BEFORE THEY ENTERED LEBANON.

25:04 - AND EVERY TIME WE GOT THERE AND BROUGHT THEM FOOD, AND SO WE WERE LIKE THE SUPPORT FAMILY OF THIS UNIT.

25:17 - SO I REMEMBER ONE DAY DOING THAT, OR GIVING HIM – WASHING THE LAUNDRY AT HOME BECAUSE HE USED TO CALL AND SAY CAN YOU COME PICK UP THE LAUNDRY? AND I TOOK HIM THE LAUNDRY AND DRIVING BACK AND SAYING, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WHY ARE YOU BRINGING HIM BACK? THEN I REMEMBER SARAH AND ABRAHAM AND ISAAC’S STORY, AND I SAID WHY ARE YOU PARTICIPATING IN THIS? THEN I WISH I WOULD BE MY MOTHER AND FATHER IN THE HOLOCAUST THAT WILL DO EVERYTHING TO SAVE THEIR CHILDREN, BUT I WAS MORE EDUCATED.

SO I DID WHAT I WAS EXPECTED TO DO. AND I KNEW THAT SOMETHING WOULD HAPPEN TO HIM. THANK GOD MY SON PHYSICALLY LEFT LEBANON IN PEACE.

26:08 - I KNEW THAT IF SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN TO HIM PHYSICALLY – I’M SAYING PHYSICALLY BECAUSE EMOTIONALLY THIS GENERATION IS SCARED FOREVER.

26:16 - AND I WOULD NOT FORGIVE MYSELF THAT I WAS SO NORMAL AND DID WHAT WAS EXPECTED OF ME AS A GOOD ISRAELI SACRIFICING MOTHER, GET THE MEDAL ON YOUR SON’S GRAVE.

26:34 - >> Lisa: I THINK THAT’S SOMETHING THAT THOSE OF US WHO DON’T LIVE IN ISRAEL SOMETIMES FORGET HOW INTIMATE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PARENTS AND CHILDREN WHO ARE SERVING IS.

26:44 - I’M ALWAYS SURPRISED WHEN I’M SPEAKING TO FRIENDS SAYING I HAVE TO GO TAKE MY DAUGHTER HER GROCERIES OR PICK UP HER LAUNDRY IN THE ARMY OR THAT SHE’S COMING HOME FOR SHABBAT.

26:55 - WE HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS COMING IN TO THE Q&A. PERHAPS WE’LL TURN TO SOME OF THOSE.

27:03 - JAYMIE ASKS, SEEING THE VIDEOS MADE BY THE SOLDIERS 20 TO 30 YEARS AGO, MADE ME THINK ABOUT THE ROLE OF CELL PHONES TODAY.

27:10 - THIS RELATES TO INTIMACY. DO YOU THINK THAT COMMUNICATION AND VIDEO SO MUCH MORE PREVALENT THAT IT MAKES THE AUDIENCE MORE ACCOUNTABLE? >> Rachel: I DON’T KNOW. I THINK THEY ALWAYS FIND A WAY.

27:25 - I DON’T WANT TO – I’VE BEEN ASKED BY – YOU KNOW NOW THERE ARE A LOT OF PROTESTS IN ISRAEL AND I’M VERY POPULAR IN HOW YOU ACHIEVE YOUR GOAL IN A PROTEST. AND I SEE A LOT OF SIMILARITIES.

27:40 - AND TECHNOLOGY IS ONE THING THAT CAN MAKE IT BETTER OR WORSE – IT DEPENDS.

27:48 - WHAT I’M SAYING IS IF YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOAL IN THIS PROTEST, YOU SHOULD DO IT.

27:56 - AND TECHNOLOGY IS JUST ONE PART. YEAH, WE DIDN’T WE JUST STARTED TO HAVE CELL PHONES, MOST OF OUR COMMUNICATION WAS THROUGH FAX AMONG OURSELVES.

28:06 - WE DIDN’T HAVE CAMERAS YET. ON OUR CELL PHONES.

28:13 - SO WITH TECHNOLOGY THE GOVERNMENT STILL MANIPULATES THE SITUATION IN A VERY EFFICIENT WAY.

28:26 - IT’S JUST A FORCE THAT YOU NEED TO WORK AGAINST AND THERE IS ALWAYS A NEW CHALLENGE, AND MAYBE TECHNOLOGY IS ONE OF THEM. I DON’T THINK THAT THE ARMY IS – OR ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION – IS MORE ACCOUNTABLE OR LESS AT THE END OF THE DAY. IT DEPENDS ON THE PEOPLE AND THEIR MINDSET.

28:46 - THE MINDSET IN ISRAEL – BY THE WAY, EVEN TALKING ABOUT OUR MOVEMENT, RECENTLY BECAUSE MY BOOK IS BEING PUBLISHED, IF YOU WANT TO READ MORE, IT WILL BE HOPEFULLY SOON TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH AND YOU CAN READ MORE. OR JUST GET THE HEBREW EDITION AND PUT IT ON GOOGLE TRANSLATE.

29:05 - SO WHAT I SEE THAT I’VE BEEN – I STARTED TO – UNTIL NOW I DID NOT WANT TO BE INTERVIEWED. FOR ME, IT WAS DONE. SO NOW THEY AGAIN ASKING ME ABOUT MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY SON.

29:21 - THEY DON’T ASK ME ABOUT THE WAY MY CONVERSATION WITH PARLIAMENT MEMBERS AND HOW WE ENTERED AND MADE A HUGE CHANGE IN PUBLIC OPINION FROM 20% TO ALMOST 80%.

29:39 - SO THIS WAS A VERY SKILLED AND DETERMINED POLITICAL WORK THAT WE DID. SO I THINK THAT TODAY, WITH TECHNOLOGY, WITHOUT TECHNOLOGY, YOU STILL HAVE TO DO THE WORK.

29:53 - AND IT’S NOT ONE DAY, AND IT’S NOT SIX MONTHS, IT CAN TAKE YEARS. AND IF WE ARE NOT OUT THERE IN THE FIELD, OR IN THE STREETS, OTHER PEOPLE ARE.

30:04 - AND THEY ARE TAKING THE COUNTRY IN THE U. S, OTHER PLACES TO WHERE THEY WANT IT TO BE AS YOU SAW IN THE CAPITOL.

30:13 - SO IN ORDER TO PREVENT IT, WE CANNOT LEAVE THE FIELD. WE CANNOT HAVE A VACUUM AND HOPING THAT THE COUNTRY WILL CONTINUE THE WAY WE WANT IT TO BE. MAYBE THROUGH ELECTION, BUT IT’S NOT ENOUGH.

30:25 - >> Lisa: SO YOU MENTIONED YOUR VIEWS AND HOW YOU SHARE THEM WITH ACTIVISTS NOW. CAN YOU SAY A BIT MORE? DO PEOPLE COME TO YOU FOR ADVICE? ARE YOU INVOLVED IN OTHER CAMPAIGNS RIGHT NOW IN ISRAEL? >> Rachel: YEAH, I AM. I’M ALWAYS INVOLVED. BECAUSE I CARE AND I AM NOT LEAVING ANYTHING WHICH IS – WHEN YOU DO THAT, YOU DON’T HAVE – YOU NEGLECT YOUR FAMILY. YOU REALLY – YOU CANNOT WORK.

30:57 - YOU JUST HAVE TO BE ALL IN. SO I’M VERY ACTIVE ALSO WITH AMERICAN GROUPS. MAYBE YOU KNOW THE ONE CREATIVITY FOR PEACE. IT’S LOCATED IN SANTA FE, AND THEY DO AMAZING WORK, BUT I MAINLY INVOLVED IN COEXISTENCE.

31:15 - LIKE IN THE ACADEMIA IN THE U. S, I MEET A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH ALL THE RIGHT INTENTION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, BUT THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT’S HAPPENING THERE AND THEY TAKE SIDES.

31:26 - AND IT’S USUALLY THEY ARE AGAINST ONE SIDE AND FOR ANOTHER SIDE. AND SOMETIMES I GO THERE AND I’M VIEWED AS AN ISRAELI AND THEY DON’T EVEN WANT ME TO VOICE MY OPINIONS.

31:44 - AND I’M QUITE SHOCKED ABOUT IT. WE ARE THE PEOPLE IN ACADEMIA YOU NEED TO SUPPORT.

31:51 - WE ARE SAYING WHAT YOU WANT US TO PROMOTE IN ISRAEL.

31:54 - WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT BECAUSE WE HAVE ENOUGH CRITICISM IN ISRAEL THAT WE TALK ABOUT COEXISTENCE. COEXISTENCE – WHAT SOME CALL IN ISRAEL RIGHT WING WAS THE ENEMY.

32:07 - AND TWO STATE SOLUTION AND ALL OF THAT, BUT WE – ISRAELI ACADEMIA IS BEING BANNED AS YOU KNOW, AND MAYBE YOU EXPERIENCE IT AS WELL. AS YOU KNOW IN BERKELEY AND EVEN OTHER UNIVERSITIES WHEN SOMEBODY HEAR THAT I’M FROM ISRAEL, DOESN’T MATTER WHAT.

32:23 - SO WE NEED TO WORK AGAINST IT AND – NOT AGAINST – WE NEED TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THE ONLY THING I WANT THE COEXISTENCE. HELP US COEXIST AND A LOT OF AMAZING WORK IS BEING DONE.

32:37 - I ACTUALLY TOOK STUDENTS FOR A TOUR OF ISRAEL AND MEET WITH A GROUP WHO WORKS FOR COEXISTENCE.

32:47 - I BELIEVE IN EDUCATION FOR COEXISTENCE. AND IT TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND IT HAS TO GO TO WORK AGAINST A LOT OF VIOLENCE THAT’S HAPPENING ON BOTH SIDES, AND CASUALTIES, BUT REALLY INTERESTING GROUP.

33:08 - SO IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO HELP WORLD PEACE, OR AT LEAST THE MIDDLE EAST, SO FIND A GROUP THAT WORKS FOR COEXISTENCE.

33:21 - THERE IS REALLY A LOT OF NICE WORK BEING DONE. SO I’M VERY ACTIVE IN THAT.

33:25 - >> Lisa: SO THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS GOING BACK TO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOU AND THE OTHER LEADERS OF THE MOVEMENT. MARY ASKS ARE YOU STILL IN TOUCH WITH ANY OF THE WOMEN FROM THE GROUP OR FROM THE FILM -ORNAS SAD STORY LIKELY ISN’T UNIQUE HOW IS SHE NOW? >> Rachel: OH, WOW, THIS IS A HUGE QUESTION. I WRITE ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK. IT’S REALLY – EVERYTHING YOU TOUCH, IT’S LIKE A CONGLOMERATE.

THERE SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT AND I FEEL REALLY BAD JUST TOUCHING IT.

34:03 - SO YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS MOVEMENT STARTED IN THE NORTHERN REGION, IN THE UPPER GALILEE, AND WE ARE A SMALL REGION. A SMALL COMMUNITY.

34:16 - SO THESE PEOPLE THAT I CAME TO WHEN I JUST CAME UP WITH THIS CRAZY IDEA, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, AFTER THE CRASH OF THE HELICOPTERS, THEY ARE THE PEOPLE I GREW UP WITH.

34:30 - THEY KNOW ME. AT THE BEGINNING, THEY SAID WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? ARE YOU CRAZY? BUT BECAUSE THEY KNOW ME, I ASKED THEM AS A PERSONAL FAVOR, CAN YOU JUST JOIN ME, LIKE WHAT I WAS TELLING YOU WITH THIS CORRESPONDENT THAT WANTED TO COME AND TALK WITH ME.

34:46 - AND I BEGGED THEM, JUST COME AND SIT WITH ME. YOU DON’T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. AND THEN MY STUDENTS AND THEN YOU START TO GET – SO THESE PEOPLE I KNEW BEFORE WE RAISED OUR CHILDREN TOGETHER. OF COURSE WE’RE IN TOUCH. WE HAVE THE MOST QUIET TIME WE EVER HAD IN THE GALILEE BECAUSE OUR TROOPS ARE OUT OF LEBANON.

35:08 - MANY OF THEM LIVE ON THE BORDER. THEIR HOUSES ARE ON THE BORDER, AND IT’S MORE QUIET THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN AFTER MORE THAN 18 YEARS OF OUR TROOPS FIGHTING, PROTECTING US FROM LEBANON.

35:24 - SO THIS IS ONE. NOW, BECAUSE OUR PROUD DAY WAS OUR MOST SUCCESSFUL DAY WAS THE DAY OF WHEN WE LEFT LEBANON IN PEACE.

35:41 - AND AS PROMISED, WE SAID – BECAUSE THEY ACCUSED US, YOU’RE RUNNING FOR POLITICS.

35:47 - AND YOU’RE DOING IT TO GAIN WHATEVER – I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU CAN GAIN. I WAS TRYING TO GET MY LIFE BACK, TO MAKE PEOPLE SAFE. LIKE IT’S NOT ENOUGH? BUT IT’S ALWAYS, YOU ARE LOOKING FOR CREDIT. I SAID, NO, NO, NO, LISTEN, WHEN WE WILL FINISH THIS JOB, WE ARE GOING BACK TO WHAT WE WERE AND WE’RE NOT RUNNING FOR POLITICS. WE’RE NOT DOING ANYTHING.

36:15 - SOME FEMINIST GROUPS WERE UPSET WITH US ABOUT THAT, BUT I FELT WE NEED TO LEAVE THIS MISSION AS PURE AS WE STARTED, JUST THE POWER WE GAINED – AND WE GAINED A LOT OF POWER JUST FOR THAT.

36:34 - AND IT WAS PROVEN TO BE ACTUALLY A GOOD IDEA, NOT ONLY BEING A ROLE MODEL FOR PEOPLE WHO GET SOME POWER AND DON’T USE IT – DON’T ABUSE IT.

36:44 - IT WAS ALSO THAT THIS MOVEMENT WAS KNOWN AS A SUCCESS JUST BECAUSE IT STOPPED THERE. AND IT ACHIEVED – STOPPING ONE WAR IN OUR REGION THAT WAS NEVER DONE BEFORE.

37:01 - SO THEN I WAS NOT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING ELSE. AND I SAID WE ARE DONE.

37:08 - THEN IN THE SECOND LEBANON WAR IN 2006, THERE WAS SOME CRAZY IDEA OF GOVERNMENT AT A CERTAIN POINT THAT WE NEED TO GO BACK INTO LEBANON.

37:21 - BECAUSE THREE SOLDIERS WERE KIDNAPPED AND KILLED. AND BY THE WAY, THEY WERE KIDNAPPED BECAUSE THE BORDER WAS NOT PROTECTED, WHICH WE ALWAYS ASK FOR THE GOVERNMENT – YOU KNOW, WE LEFT LEBANON. CAN YOU JUST PUT SOMETHING THAT’S NOT – WON’T BE CAPABLE TO CROSS? WHATEVER YOU CAN THINK OF. THE BORDER WAS A JOKE AT THAT TIME. IT WAS NOT SUFFICIENT.

37:50 - AND I KNEW THAT IT’S SO – SO MUCH POSSIBLE FOR TERRORIST GROUPS OR WHATEVER THAT ARE – TO CROSS THE BORDER AND THEN WE HAVE THE SECOND LEBANON WAR.

38:07 - AT THAT TIME CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT WERE NOT EVEN IN THE MOVEMENT, INCLUDING THE MOURNING MOM THAT YOU SEE IN THE PICTURE, CLAIMED THAT THEY ARE A PART OF THE FOUR MOTHERS, AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY SUPPORTING THIS WAR IN LEBANON.

38:25 - SO I HAD TO ASK A LAWYER TO SEND A LETTER TO EVERYONE – NO ONE CAN USE THE NAME OF THE MOVEMENT, ESPECIALLY NOT TO PROMOTE ANOTHER WAR.

38:34 - I WAS NOT IN THE COUNTRY. I WAS IN THE STATE AT THAT TIME.

38:38 - MY SON THE SOLDIER BECAME A PILOT FOR UNITED. SO WE CAME TO BE WITH HIM. HE’S BACK IN ISRAEL NOW. HE’S BACK IN THE KIBBUTZ IN THE GALILEE, BUT HE WAS FOR 15 YEARS A PILOT FOR UNITED.

38:50 - SO WE CAME TO BE WITH HIM FOR A LITTLE BIT. MY HUSBAND GOT A JOB HERE AND SO WE STAYED HERE AND I DIDN’T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE MOVEMENT.

38:57 - INTO THIS VACUUM CAME OTHER PEOPLE THAT DID NOT DO SUCH A GOOD JOB – FOR EXAMPLE, THE MOURNING MOM. SO IN THE FILM, IF WE TALK ABOUT THE FILM, SO WHILE I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, WE WERE ALSO MAKING THE FILM AND THE FILM IS KIND OF BASED ON SOME – ON THE BOOK.

39:16 - OF COURSE 80% OF IT DID NOT MAKE IT INTO THE FILM, BUT THAT’S ANOTHER STORY. AND AT THE END OF IT, THEY’VE DECIDED TO BRING MOURNING MOMS, BEREAVED MOMS.

39:32 - AND OUR TITLE WAS LET’S DO SOMETHING BEFORE AND NOT ONLY CRY LATER. BECAUSE THE ISRAELI SOCIETY TREATS BEREAVED FAMILIES DIFFERENTLY.

39:46 - IT’S NOT – THEY ARE MORE AS A SYMBOL, AND AS A MOURNING MOM.

39:53 - AND WE HAD PEOPLE LIKE THAT. WE HAD FAMILIES WHO LOST THEIR CHILDREN, BUT THEY WERE NOT IN THE FRONT BECAUSE WE HAD TO TALK WITH THEM AND MAKE THEM – ASSURE THEM THAT WE ARE ONLY TALKING FROM LOGIC AND IT’S NOT EMOTIONAL. IT’S ONLY RATIONAL.

40:14 - SO A LOT OF ISSUES AROUND THAT. SO THIS WAS ONE OF THEM, AND THIS WOMAN ESPECIALLY DID NOT WANT TO BE PART OF THE MOVEMENT.

40:27 - AND THEN AFTER THE MOVEMENT WAS DISBANDED, SHE STARTED TO GET MORE ATTENTION. AND WE STEPPED ASIDE. AND I SAID FINE. IF SHE’S DOING THE THING THAT HELPS, GO AHEAD.

40:43 - BUT THEN IT WAS A LITTLE BIT TRICKY WHEN THEY RAISED MONEY IN OUR NAME – SO WE HAD TO STOP IT.

40:50 - NOW I’M APPEARING AGAIN, AFTER 20 YEARS I WROTE THE BOOK, I’M COLLECTING IT. I DIDN’T HAVE ANY INTEREST, BUT THEN I FELT THAT THE MOVEMENT IS BEING TAKEN TO A PLACE OF BEREAVED PARENTS AND MORE LIKE AN EMOTIONAL – WE ARE BEING – PEOPLE FEEL FOR US.

41:18 - IT’S NOT LIKE A LOGICAL THING TO DO. IT’S BECAUSE WE DON’T WANT ANY OTHER CHILDREN TO BE – TO DIE IN THE WAR AND ALL THE OTHER ARGUMENTS ARE TRUE AS WELL, BUT I WANTED TO LEAVE IT O ON THE POLITICAL LEVEL. THAT THIS WAS WRONG. AND PEOPLE WHO CONTINUED TO STAY IN LEBANON, THEY DID IT FOR THE WRONG REASON AND WE’RE PROVING WHY. IT SERVED THEIR CAREER AND NOTHING ELSE.

41:43 - SO WE COULDN’T LET OURSELVES GO AFTER THE EMOTIONAL SIDE.

41:49 - AND THE MOVEMENT WAS MORE TAKEN TO THE PART WHERE THE MEDIA REALLY LIKED IT. SO THE MOURNING MOM, THE CRYING AND SO, YEAH, SO THIS WAS AN INTERESTING TURN THAT THE MOVEMENT TOOK.

42:05 - >> Lisa: SO IT SOUNDS AS IF THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE WHO WERE DRAWN TO THE MOVEMENT FOR THE RATIONAL ARGUMENT AND SOME PEOPLE WERE DRAWN TO THE MOVEMENT BY THE EMOTIONAL RESONANCE AS WELL >> Rachel: AND WE ALWAYS HAD BOTH OF COURSE. BUT THE PROBLEM WAS BEING EMOTIONAL WAS A DEFAULT PERCEPTION, RIGHT? SO WE HAD TO WORK VERY HARD TO CONVINCE THE COUNTRY, GOD FORBID WE ARE NOT BEING EMOTIONAL.

WE ARE JUST RATIONAL. WE ARE TALKING WITH THE COMMANDERS IN THE ARMY LIKE, OKAY, THERE WAS SO MUCH MORE EMOTION ABOUT THEIR MILITARY APPROACH TO LIFE – I DON’T WANT TO COMPARE – TO SHOW ALWAYS THAT IT’S A COLD, RATIONAL ARGUMENT. SO THIS WAS THE MISSION TO MAKE THIS PERCEPTION, TO DEVELOP THIS IMAGE. I’M SURE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN ACADEMIA OR ANY OTHER JOB SOMETIME HAVE TO – BEING A WOMAN, I DON’T KNOW, HAVE TO PROVE MORE THAT THEY ARE KNOWLEDGEABLE.

43:19 - DEFINITELY IN THE TALMUD DEPARTMENT IN JERUSALEM, THAT’S FOR SURE. YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT – BEFORE EACH CLASS I HAD TO LEARN BY HEART THE WHOLE PAGE. AND COME TO CLASS AND – AND THEY WERE LOOKING AT ME – WHAT? HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? AND SO, YEAH, YOU NEED TO GET AT A CERTAIN TIME, TO A CERTAIN PLACE AND THEN THEY CAN ACCEPT YOU.

43:47 - LIKE TALMUDIC LEADERS FOR WHO THEY ARE – IF YOU KNOW QUEEN SHLOMTZION FOR EXAMPLE.

43:55 - THAT REIGNED IN ISRAEL FOR NINE YEARS, THE MOST PEACEFUL YEARS OF THE SECOND TEMPLE PERIOD.

44:05 - >> Lisa: SO THERE IS A QUESTION ABOUT THE GENERALS AND POLITICIANS. AMIR ASKS DID YOU HAVE ANY POSITIVE EXPERIENCES WITH ISRAELI POLITICIANS AND GENERALS? >> Rachel: YEAH, WE HAD ALSO SOME OF THEM WHO SUPPORTED US FROM THE GET GO, BUT YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED, THESE ARE NOT THE LEFT WING PARTIES.

44:31 - LIKE IF YOU’RE FAMILIAR WITH ISRAELI POLITICS, WE HAVE MERETZ THE RIGHT WING, NOW WE DON’T KNW IF THEY WILL MAKE IT THROUGH THIS ELECTION. AND THEY – AND PEACE NOW ACTUALLY, THEY WERE AGAINST US. THEY WERE ACTUALLY – TREATED US, THE MEN, ESPECIALLY IF YOU KNOW THE NAME YOSSI SARID AND THE LEADERS OF SHALOM ACHSHAV MAINLY MEN TREATED US ALMOST THE SAME LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE AGAINST US FROM THE RIGHT WING PARTIES.

45:06 - BECAUSE MY KNOWLEDGE IN TALMUD, I WAS VERY POPULAR IN SHAS AND I HAD VERY PERSONAL, NICE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MINISTER OF RELIGION, AND HE INVITED ME TO TALK WITH SHAS ABOUT TALMUDIC – TALKING ABOUT WAR AND WOMEN AND – AND SO IT WAS A VERY INTERESTING CONVERSATION.

45:30 - AND THE REASON WHY LEFT WING PARTIES WERE AGAINST US WAS THE SAME REASON WHY THE STATE – WE WERE IN TOUCH WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT IN THE UNITED STATES AND WITH KOFI ANON BEING THE SECRETARY OF THE UNITED NATIONS AND ACTUALLY WE MET WITH THE CLINTONS WHEN THEY CAME TO JERUSALEM. YOU WILL SEE PICTURES IN THE BOOK.

45:52 - AND AMERICANS AND ISRAELI POLICY WAS THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO LEAVE LEBANON WITHOUT AN AGREEMENT WITH SYRIA.

46:03 - AND THIS WAS – WHEN THE PRIME MINISTER BARAK, THE ONE THAT PULLED US OUT OF LEBANON EVENTUALLY AND WE SUPPORTED HIM AND THEREFORE HE WAS ELECTED, AT THE BEGINNING, NO ONE WANTS TO LEAVE LEBANON IN PEACE THE SAME WAY WE ENTERED.

46:24 - FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY HAVE THIS GRANDIOSE IDEAS THAT A NEW MIDDLE EAST – WHILE WE ARE DYING IN LEBANON, AND WE WERE TRYING TO STOP THEM FROM DOING THAT BECAUSE WE KNEW – AND THIS NEGOTIATION, THE SYRIAN WOULD RETALIATE AGAINST US EVERY TIME THEY ARE STUCK IN NEGOTIATION AND WHEN WE HAVE A LOT OF CASUALTIES, WE WILL FALL DOWN AND GIVE THEM A LOT MORE.

46:53 - AND WHICH ACTUALLY HAPPENED. AND THEN BARAK DECIDED THAT HE’S GOING TO STOP AND GET OUT OF LEBANON IMMEDIATELY. SO ACTUALLY EARLIER THAN WE EXPECTED.

47:08 - BECAUSE IT WAS FALLING APART. SO HE STOPPED – I WISH WE WOULD HAVE A NEGOTIATION WITH SYRIA. MY HOUSE IS NEXT TO THE SYRIAN BORDER. I WISH WE WOULD HAVE SOME KIND OF PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THEM, BUT YOU KNOW IT WAS TOO MUCH OF A DREAM AND NOT SO MUCH REALITY.

47:28 - SO THEY WERE VERY MUCH AGAINST US ABOUT – THE LEFT WING PARTIES.

47:34 - >> Lisa: SO IN THE TIME WE HAVE LEFT I’D LIKE TO TURN TO THINKING ABOUT THE LEGACY OF THE FOUR MOTHERS MOVEMENT.

47:40 - JAYMIE ASKS HOW DO YOU THINK YOUR MOVEMENT HAS IMPACTED ISRAEL’S VIEWS TOWARDS ENTERING CONFLICTS OVER THE LONG TERM? >> Rachel: YEAH, AT THE BEGINNING I THOUGHT IT’S NOT MY PLACE TO FIND THE CAUSALITY AND WHAT IS THE IMPACT, AND I SAID SOMEBODY ELSE WILL SAY AND REACH THAT, BUT THEN I FOUND OUT A LOT OF INTERESTING REACTION TO OUR WORK, WHICH I WANT TO POINT OUT.

48:16 - ONE WAS THAT THE ISRAELI CITIZENS ARE NOT GOING TO BE TOLERANT ANYMORE TO EVERY CRAZY IDEA TO GO – TO CROSS THE BORDER INTO A WAR.

48:34 - AND THE ISRAELI SOCIETY WILL FIGHT FOR A DIPLOMATIC NEGOTIATION RATHER THAN USING THE ARMY, WHICH USUALLY WAS IN ISRAEL THE FIRST REACTION.

48:50 - AND STILL IS IN A WAY. SO THEY UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAELI – AS THEY SAY WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS, SWITZERLAND? LIKE GOD FORBID YOU’LL BE MORE NORMAL, AND DON’T THINK THAT YOU NEED TO SEND YOUR TROOPS INTO A WAR EVERY TIME THERE IS A CRISIS.

49:08 - BECAUSE THE IDEA IS SO – HAVE THE UPPER HAND IN THE REGION.

49:16 - SUPPOSEDLY THE UPPER HAND. AND THEN THEY REALIZE THAT MAYBE IT’S NOT SO. THE ISRAELI ARMY IS NOT SO STRONG WHEN IT’S NOT BEING SUPPORTED BY CITIZENS. AND THERE ARE DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST RETALIATION, SO THIS WAS ONE.

49:35 - THE BAD THING THAT HAPPENED BECAUSE OF THAT, THEY REALIZED IF ISRAEL SOCIETY GETTING MORE NORMAL AND LESS WILLING TO GET CASUALTIES AND SACRIFICE THEIR LIFE SO QUICKLY, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, MAYBE WE CAN DEVELOP A NEW TYPE OF WAR.

49:54 - AND WHEN THEY, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE WARS IN THE GAZA STRIP, THEY USED MORE OF THE AIR FORCE AND MORE ARTILLERY INSTEAD OF LETTING SOLDIERS IN.

50:08 - SO OF COURSE THEY WOULD HAVE MORE CASUALTIES ON THE OTHER SIDE. SO I THOUGHT IN THIS WAS A REALLY BAD OUTCOME FROM WHAT WE DID.

50:19 - OKAY, MOTHERS AND CITIZENS WOULD NOT WANT TO HAVE CASUALTIES, SO LET’S BOMB EVERYTHING AND NOT TO EVEN MAKE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CITIZENS AND OTHERS – I MEAN THEY DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, BUT NOT BEING SO CAREFUL AS YOU CAN BE WHEN YOU SEND YOUR TROOPS IN.

50:39 - SO THIS WAS A VERY BAD OUTCOME. AND THE OTHER THING IS THAT I THOUGHT WE OPENED MORE OF A CRACK FOR WOMEN TO BE PART OF MILITARY AND SECURITY ISSUES DISCUSSIONS, BUT AS I SAID NOW, 20 YEARS AFTER, AND ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF THE IMAGE OF THE BEREAVED MOM AND THEIR ARGUMENTS, IT WAS MORE BACK TO – THEY REFERRED TO US, AND THIS IS ALSO SOMETHING THAT I DECIDED I NEED TO WRITE ABOUT IT.

51:16 - LOOK WHAT AN AMAZING OPERATION WE HAD THERE. THAT IT’S NOT ONLY THAT WE ARE CRYING ABOUT OUR CHILDREN, AND THERE YOU WILL FEEL BAD FOR US AND SEND THE TROOPS BACK HOME. IT’S NOT ONLY BECAUSE YOU FEEL PITY FOR US. THIS IS NOT THE WAY IT’S GOING TO BE HAPPENING.

51:37 - AND THIS WAS MORE THE IMAGE THEY DEVELOPED DURING THE YEARS. AND NOW I FEEL THAT WE NEED TO BRING BACK THE DISCUSSION OF WE CAN TALK TO YOU, WE CAN UNDERSTAND AND WHAT YOU’RE DOING IS WRONG AND WE NEED TO BE PART OF THE DISCUSSION AROUND THE TABLE WHEN YOU DEAL WITH SECURITY ISSUES – WOMEN, CITIZENS, AS MUCH AS ANYBODY ELSE.

52:01 - >> Lisa: I THINK THAT’S AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF YOUR LEGACY, THAT IT’S NOT JUST THE WITHDRAWAL FROM LEBANON IN 2000, BUT IT’S ALSO CHANGING THE CONVERSATION TO SAY THAT ORDINARY CITIZENS WHO ARE NOT GENERALS, WHO DON’T HAVE EXPERTISE, ALSO HAVE SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE AND SOMETHING TO SAY, AND NEED TO BE ENGAGED IN CONVERSATION.

52:24 - >> Rachel: SOMETIMES TO THE CONTRARY, BECAUSE GENERALS OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE INVESTED IN ONE PARTICULAR FRONT, AND THEY KNOW HOW TO DO CERTAIN THINGS.

52:36 - THAT DOES NOT NECESSARILY QUALIFY OR NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A PART OF THIS CONVERSATION.

52:39 - THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO GIVE US IDEAS HOW TO PROTECT THE BORDER, AND WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DECIDED THAT – THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN SENDING THE TROOPS, THEN THEY CAN GO TO THE ARMY AND ASK SO WHAT CAN BE DONE? SO, YEAH, IT’S A VERY TRICKY – FRAGILE CONVERSATION, AND PLUS ALSO THAT YOU MUST AND CAN GET UP AND WORK FOR CHANGE. BECAUSE IF NOT, DON’T BE SURPRISED THAT THE WORLD IS NOT ACTING ACCORDING TO THE MORALS YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

53:21 - >> Lisa: SO YOU’RE SHARING THIS STORY NOW IN A NUMBER OF WAYS, THROUGH THE FILM, THROUGH THE BOOK, AND JUST – THERE IS A QUESTION ABOUT HOW TO GET THE BOOK AND THE TITLE OF THE BOOK.

53:34 - SO IT’S COMING OUT IN HEBREW. WHAT’S THE TITLE? >> Rachel: ACTUALLY, I’VE DECIDED TO WRITE IT FIRST IN HEBREW BECAUSE I FELT THAT WE NEED THIS DISCUSSION IN ISRAEL. AND I WAS SURPRISED HOW RELEVANT IT IS AND HOW INTERESTED PEOPLE ARE IN IT.

53:49 - I APPEARED ON EVERY MEDIA AND RADIO – YOU CAN CHECK MY WEBSITE, RACHELBENDOR. COM.

54:01 - AND THERE IS AN ARCHIVE AT OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY, AND IT’S DESIGNED TO FOR ENGLISH SPEAKERS. THE DOCUMENTS ARE IN HEBREW, SOME OF THE ARTICLES ARE IN ENGLISH, BUT FOR EVERY DOCUMENT IN HEBREW, THERE IS A SHORT DESCRIPTION WHAT THIS DOCUMENT IS ABOUT AND YOU CAN DECIDE IF YOU WANT TO TRANSLATE IT OR NOT. AND WE NEED A LOT MORE SUPPORT AND WORK ON THE ARCHIVES.

54:33 - SO IF THERE ARE STUDENTS OR ANYONE WHO ARE LOOKING TO HELP DEVELOP THE ARCHIVE, BECAUSE I HAVE SO MANY MORE DOCUMENTS THAT ARE SO INTERESTING, INCLUDING FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

54:44 - AND OTHER COUNTRIES AS WELL, THE RELATIONSHIP WITH US, HOW TO BE IN TOUCH WITH US AND HOW MUCH THEY CAN INFLUENCE ISRAELI POLITICS OR NOT.

54:56 - AND SO WHOEVER WANTS TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS AND HELP ME TRANSLATE A BOOK INTO ENGLISH, I WOULD BE VERY, VERY HAPPY TO GET ANY SUPPORT.

55:11 - I’M WORKING ON IT THESE DAYS TO TRANSLATE IT TO ENGLISH.

55:16 - IT CAN HAPPY VERY QUICKLY. I JUST NEED TO FIND THE RIGHT WAYS TO DO IT.

55:24 - >> Lisa: SO WE’LL LOOK FOR THE BOOK IN ENGLISH. AND JUST IN THE LAST MINUTES, YOU MENTIONED THE ARCHIVE AND BRANDEIS ALSO HAS A PROJECT TO CREATE JEWISH FEMINIST COLLECTIONS AND HAS BEEN INVITING JEWISH – 20TH CENTURY FEMINISTS TO DONATE THEIR PAPERS AND MAKE THEM AVAILABLE.

55:44 - AND WE HAVE SCHOLARS WHO COME AND WORK WITH THEM. WE HAVE STUDENTS WHO WORK WITH – DIRECTLY WITH THE MATERIALS LIKE MARCIA FREEDMAN ARCHIVE. HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO DONATE YOUR ARCHIVE AND MAKE IT AVAILABLE? >> Rachel: SO I WOULD LIKE A PLACE THAT IT WILL NOT STAY IN THE BOX AND THERE WOULD BE AN INTERACTIVE WORK AROUND IT, MEANING THAT THERE WOULD BE A CLASS OR STUDENTS WOULD RESEARCH MORE ABOUT IT.

56:21 - AND TO FIND WAYS FOR THESE DOCUMENTS TO BE – ALSO IF YOU TALK ABOUT BRANDEIS, MOST OF OUR CONTENT BECAUSE I WAS THE CHAIRPERSON AND DID MOST OF THE EVENT WAS BASED ON BIBLICAL TEXT. AND I ALSO WROTE A LOT ABOUT THE USE OF RELIGIOUS TEXT IN POLITICAL DEBATE.

56:41 - BECAUSE BEFORE US SECULAR LEFT WING PEACE MOVEMENT DEALING WITH RELIGIOUS TEXT – IT’S KIND OF AN ANOMALY. IT WAS A PHENOMENA. USUALLY IT’S NOT BEING DONE.

56:57 - SO IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THE JEWISH ASPECT, THE JEWISH TEXT ASPECT OF THE MOVEMENT, IT WAS VERY – IT WAS QUITE CONVINCING ACTUALLY. I WAS ALSO VERY SURPRISED BY THE ISRAELI MEDIA THAT WAS SO ATTRACTED TO THIS IMAGE.

57:16 - WE ARE KIBBUTZIM, SO IT’S THE MOST SECULAR SOCIETY, USING RELIGIOUS TEXT FOR PEACE. SO IT WAS QUITE A UNIQUE ASPECT YOU CAN RESEARCH ABOUT IT AND YOU CAN SEE A LOT IN THE ARCHIVE.

57:35 - A LOT OF MY NOTES ARE WRITTEN ON TALMUDIC PAGES, SO ON ONE SIDE THERE IS THE PAGE I WAS READING ON THAT DAY AND THE OTHER SIDE – LIKE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CLASS THEY CAME INTO THE COLLEGE AND ASKED TO INTERVIEW ME. SO, YEAH.

57:52 - >> Lisa: WELL I THINK I CAN SPEAK FOR EVERYONE WHO SAW THE FILM AND WHO HAS PARTICIPATED IN THE PANEL DISCUSSION TODAY THAT WE’RE VERY GRATEFUL THAT YOU’VE SHARED THE STORY IN THESE MANY WAYS AND LOOK FORWARD TO EXPLORING THE ARCHIVE.

58:06 - THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> Rachel: AND GO AND DO THE WORK, DON’T GIVE UP ON ANY IDEA THAT YOU WANT. JUST GO FIGHT FOR IT AND THEN YOU’LL HAVE THE WORLD YOU DESERVE – WE DESERVE.

58:17 - >> Ariana: THANK YOU SO MUCH, RACHEL, FOR BEING WITH US.

58:20 - AND THANK YOU, LISA, FOR THIS REALLY ILLUMINATING CONVERSATION. WE DID POST A LINK IN THE CHAT TO THE ARCHIVE SO PEOPLE CAN LOOK THERE TO LEARN MORE.

58:30 - AND THANK YOU EVERYONE WHO JOINED US, WHO ASKED QUESTIONS, WHO WATCHED THE FILM AND THE FILM WILL BE AVAILABLE THROUGH MARCH 10TH.

58:38 - AND THEN I KNOW IS GOING ON TO MANY OTHER FESTIVALS. SO TELL YOUR FRIENDS AROUND THE WORLD THAT IT WILL COME TO THEM SOON. THANK YOU AGAIN AND I HOPE TO SEE YOU SOON. .