HardTalk Ishaq Dar Former Finance Minister of Pakistan BBC Full Interview (EXPOSED)

welcome to hard talk i’m stephen sacker imran khan won power in pakistan two years ago with a promise to root out corruption and take on the country’s vested interests so how’s it going well rising food prices and the covered pandemic have left many pakistanis feeling worse off while the anti-corruption drive has become a political battleground my guest today ishaq dar was pakistan’s finance minister a key lieutenant of former prime minister nawaz sharif now both of those men are trying to rally opposition to imran khan but how much credibility do they have ishaq dar welcome to heart talk thank you for inviting me let us begin with your personal status your legal status you are a wanted man in pakistan are you here in london to escape the judicial process well not not really i think uh you must be aware of the pakistan history that whenever in pakistan over a period of 73 years the corruption rhetoric has been used in the last few dictatorships and the current one isn’t different because this regime is known to be under a covert coup or a judicial martial law so i i can prove that there is nothing against me and i have all the evidence uh i hope that you know that the prime allegation against me my name was not in panama paper my name was not in the 20th of april because some people will not be following this uh in great detail you’re saying your name was not in the panama papers nonetheless we learned an awful lot from those panama papers published in 2016 about your money is being stashed away in foreign bank accounts and it involves some very top-level pakistanis and there was reason to believe that not just nawaz sharif’s family was involved but your family too no there isn’t any mention of my family i’m not saying there was a specific mention of your family but the national accountability bureau decided after the publication of the panama papers to look very closely at yours and your family’s interests assets and accounts and they found that there were grave problems with your accounts no not at all not at all because you see i’m sure that you would be privy that it was the supreme court direction which set up a joint investigation team which is extrajudicial uh activity which supreme court decided and there were two military intelligence members who are virtually governing out of the six members of the jit so you see there’s a background well i i’m actually interested in in what’s known in pakistan as the national accountability bureau it’s the main agency of anti-corruption they look very carefully at you and your family’s interests as you well know and in september 2017 they concluded that you and your family owned assets quote beyond your known sources of income they said quite specifically they’re huge that is you has acquired assets and pecuniary pecuniary interests resources in his own name and the name of dependence a totaling uh roughly 6 million u.s dollars more than 830 million pakistani rupees now is it your contention that the national accountability bureau has no integrity it has lost its integrity long time back it is uh it is uh you know an institution which is used against political opponents but you didn’t say that with respect sir when you were a very senior serving government minister no i did i had i held press conference and i explained by the way this number is as per my tax return i never miss you see the prime allegation against me which was which was in in the jit report on the basis of which supreme court directed nav to file a reference was that i did not file 20 years tax return in pakistan 1981 to 2001 a uk qualified chartered accountant never missed reporting his tax matters in uk when he was here till 1976 and then in the north america two years and in pakistan since 70 and now missed any tax return so this is such a you know blatant allegation is it well in that case let’s be very open and transparent with each other i’ve interviewed many government officials and ministers around the world over many years and sure they always say oh i’m not responsible for any corruption at all and i believe in transparency i do you do so how many properties do you and your family own it’s all declared in my in in my in my tax returns just give me the answer because i don’t know how many properties do you want i have i have my main residence uh in pakistan which has been taken over by you know by this regime uh you so i have i haven’t got too many properties but how many properties do you and your family my my net worth is what what has been how many properties do you and your family own one what what’s what you and your family on one property might fall down all of these stories in the pakistani press about multiple properties owned by your family inside pakistan property interests overseas including in dubai wherever and we’re sitting in london we’re sitting in london do you not own nothing in london no your family not just you your family no not at all no no no because they and you find the government dubai my sons have just one villa which is which is owned by them they’re in business for the last 17 years so when i asked you how many properties you and your family own and you said one that wasn’t true no no it is strictly true because they’re adult they’re married they’re 17 years they’re in business so they’re independent of me you know very well that when the nab looked at your assets they were looking at you and your family i have no issue i have no issue my family everything is accounted for that’s exactly see if all of this is so clear-cut you only own one property in the entire world your tax records have been kept and given to the authorities over the last 20 years if everything is so crystal clear why do you not go to pakistan and make this case in a court of law well the court of law you know we you know my lawyers were there i i’m here for medical treatment i have cervical issue do we’ve been here for one best part of three years on this medical school almost yes are you still really suffering yes i am i’m and you couldn’t possibly get back to pakistan well let’s see what’s what’s happening in pakistan what where are the human rights what’s happening in custody what people have have dozens of people have have been killed virtually we’re sorry you’re saying there’s a human being investigated by the nav the national accountability bureau have been killed in the nab custody many people have died yes uh i mean it’s an open secret you do you google can you you would have all the detail i can i can leave detail with you if you want to you see this this this institution has been politically used against opponents as i said that i never missed a return my the premise of the entire thing and whatever they said my net worth is already if it is documented in my tax return and my tax return is not missing so it is totally accounted for so what is the issue the issue is issue is something different because mr sharif was fighting for the civil supremacy and i have always been fighting for the for the financial and fiscal discipline transference you introduced the name mr sharif so i think we need to talk about mr sharif as well as yourself because nawaz sharif is also in london also on medical grounds he handled by the nap the truth is nawaz sharif is a convicted criminal well i hope you know that both cases in which he has been convicted both case in both judgments it has been written that the prosecution has not been able to prove any corruption any kickback any uh loss to the exchequer the what else we want i i i’m sorry sir but it is quite clear that he is a convicted criminal and again the accountability court which works alongside the national accountability bureau found against mr sharif i believe he was given a 10-year sentence and that was reduced ultimately to seven years he was then allowed to come to london on medical grounds the same medical grounds that you brought you to london too so here there’s two of you sit and now you and he you of course used to be his finance minister in the pakistan government you and he put yourselves forward as leading voices in the opposition in pakistan demanding early elections and an end to imran khan’s government and i ask you what credibility do you think you have with the pakistan i think what credibility is the word has witnessed that it was a stolen election it was a rigged election it’s not we were saying we have experienced all uh pre-poll 2018 surveys indicate the pml and will win but the observers the human rights commission of pakistan the dirtiest election everybody know the election has been stolen uh from us so i think we have everything expected i just look back at the eu monitors report on that election they reported some grave concerns about abuses in specific places not involving just one party but several different parties but the final and ultimate conclusion was that they believed the result was credible that imran khan’s election victory in 2018 was credible that was the conclusion of the unity report then you haven’t read all the reports the human rights uh you know you can cherish that you can cherry pick the most negative i’m telling you that the eu monitors highly respected independent monitors looked at everything that happened in pakistan and they concluded that imran khan’s victory was credible now free and fair election network uh which is the global one do i mean do we have any question integrity on their integrity what do they report i don’t believe that there’s ever been an election in pakistan without some abuses where every single thing was conducted with freedom and integrity that doesn’t work in pakistan the truth is imran khan has a democratic mandate he’s been in power for two years and you are now saying to the pakistani people he must be removed mr he this election has been stolen it was a rigged election there was a pre-polar rigging electoral from our party were you know were pushed to his party using the nap during the day the the you know the uh the results transmission system was was choked off and was was put off of hours or polling agents were expelled from the poor i mean has reported 35 seats were rigged and stolen otherwise he would have never been in government well your party chooses to say that i would simply michael garla the chief of the un monitor the eu monitoring team who said overall i think the real result is credible well this is this you haven’t read the whole report i can let’s go to the whole report of uh of uh eu chief please go through what what did you say before this last sentence yes conclusion is the most important thing i think you’d agree no no okay let’s move on let’s talk about what your tactics are now because as i’ve said you and noah sharif are sending your video links back into pakistan sometimes to thousands of people demanding an early end to the imran khan government and this is what just a month ago nawaz sharif said to thousands of people in punjab he said that the integrity of the army chief general kama javed bajwa had disappeared he said that the general was responsible for levering him out of office and rigging 2018 as you’ve said quote this is what uh nawaz sharif said you directly to the general the chief of the army he said you packed up our government and you you uh put the nation at the altar of your own wishes you rejected the people’s choice in elections and installed an inefficient incapable group leading to economic catastrophe what an extraordinary thing to say obviously your country’s chief of army it’s a reality the bug stops at the top and the deep state is known uh what deep state does in pakistan i mean is is it a surprise to you mr sekker it is known to the world as the hillary clinton of the day just gave an interview and she said what is deep state quoting pakistan is an example so please we must we must be fair to analyze things the election was stolen it started off from dawn leaks mr shreeb has been struggling for the supremacy of democracy for the supreme court parliament and i have been struggling for the fiscal and and fiscal and uh discipline and the transparency is it wrong i mean uk has been upholding the democracy and the democratic values we would think that you would be supporting us so let us be clear you are saying that the pakistani military the army in particular are subverting all democrat democratic processes in your country this is the global reports i mean it’s not we i want to be clear what you’re saying but the pakistani people will be listening to this interview and you are condemning the military of your own country as subverting it’s not the military i think we have to we have to talk about the individuals it’s not all the entire institution i think let’s be let’s create a difference is the is the is the wish list is the plan of certain people who who enforce in pakistan martial law so you’re saying the army is led by general bajwa who in yours and sharif’s opinion is entirely subverting democracy is that what you’re saying well i i want to be clear let’s re- articulate what are what we are saying that if the elections were wrecked it is not established uh without any ray of doubt so if the elections were wrecked and you know somebody has been planned it’s not we it is the interior minister of pakistan gave a statement that if mr sharif had not got problem with the deep state and the institutions he would have been fourth time prime minister why did why would he say it so let’s be clear you’re now alleging that this is entirely unacceptable when your first wild boss and your very close eye ally nawaz sharif was working hand in glove with pakistan’s military dictator general zia for many years and suddenly he’s decided that the military and the way they interfere in politics in pakistan is entirely unacceptable what kind of hypocrisy is that no i i i i just i just believe uh you know this analysis frankly speaking i disagree with you a little bit of what i’ve just said maybe evolution process maybe evolution process evolution process yes because you know you mean because then he was in power and now he’s out of power so he’s really angry with the army because they won’t work with him it’s not it’s not the it’s not it’s not the first time it’s the third time he was prime minister and imran khan interior minister tells the whole world that mr sharif would have been fourth time prime minister if he had not got trouble with the with the you know the establishment you see imran khan may be unpopular in pakistan now but when he heard what nawaz sharif said last month at that rally when he directly targeted the chief of army imran khan said this he said how dare should nawaz sharif point to the general and blame him for what is happening in pakistan when for years mr nawaz sharif polished the boots of a former military dictator when imran khan said that i dare say he actually had a great deal of sympathy for many pakistanis who know hypocrisy when they see it i think you probably haven’t seen his 21 clips how he has been maligning the military the military army chief the intelligence services of pakistan and not too long before it’s it’s just uh last year when he was in united states he gave a statement that it is the isi the you know the our intelligence service which actually was responsible for the swama bin laden and it’s uh it’s killing it etc etc so i think when he was out of power when he was in opposition he had given 21 different statements at different times he was known as talaban khan i mean i i don’t know what are we talking or wish to discuss his performance in our performance are we here to talk whether it is a pure democracy or is it enoch you and other opposition elements have created this pakistan democratic movement you want to deliver early elections and see imran booted out of power but many people even in your own movement are now backing away from this targeting of the pakistani military for example bill of albuto said it was regrettable that nawaz sharif had named the military chief by name and even mr sharif’s own daughter maryam had to stress at great length that she was not anti-military it sounds like nowhere sharif is over here i think there’s there seems to be a confusion mr nawaz sharif as prime minister or otherwise is not anti-military please let’s be very clear he blames certain individuals and as i said the puck you know stops at the at the top if the dawn leaks were there there’s a huge uh you know a history about that i’m sure you will be privy to to don leakes it’s red so far it reads for pakistan going back to gray which we brought out from gray and it was white so i think you know if mr sharif talks of certain interventions which are against the oath against the constitution of pakistan is it is something wrong i think let’s talk let’s talk about politics and your message to your own people we know that pakistani people are suffering right now food price inflation is soaring kobit 19 is seeing a second surge in your country creating real economic difficulties there’s going to be barely any growth in the pakistan economy this year in the midst of all of that you are creating a new level of political instability demanding that imran call early elections calling him illegitimate banging on about the vote rigging claiming that the army is really in power do you think that your approach is really helping the interests of the pakistani people i think you have to be neutral empire mr sekker for a moment 2014 we won the election 2013 massive majority two third almost 2014 was when mr imran khan comes uh to agitate for four constituencies rigged only his claim nobody spoke yeah yeah we have interests of pakistani people at heart and that’s why we are moving this country had witnessed double revenue collection in our return or five years lowest inflation lowest interest rates best performing stock market in the south asia most stable currency uh highest gdp growth in level near five point eight percent i mean it’s it’s all music your western uh you know the institutions had all the praise and what was the final report in 2016. pricewaterscooper what did he say pakistan is going to join g20 by 2030. and we were striving to bring it even earlier and we were very clearly hoping that since we had ended the roads heading we had fought the extremism and terrorism in pakistan we had improved the macroeconomic you know indicators in pakistan and all places all so now i understand i don’t know i’m not suggesting that your personal economic record was bad in some ways it was good but listen i’m just trying to get you to respond to a simple question pakistan is where it is today has a five year mandate he won the election now you have a choice you have a choice you can you can wait to fight in the next election if you choose to go home frankly but at the moment you’re still in london you can either fight at the ballot box during the next election or you can try to undermine imran khan and his government from the sidelines from here in london and thereby create new economic and political instability is that the choice no no it’s not a matter of political instability it’s a matter of incompetence it’s a matter of non-performance it’s a matter of ruining and you know grounding the economy of pakistan in two years before krona mind you after 1952 pakistan first time had seen negative gdp growth after 1952 from 5.8 first year 1.9 this year 0.4 negative and there’s a massive unemployment we pulled six percent people out of poverty he has pushed back six six you know six six percent people in the poverty line he he promised to give 10 million jobs he has made people unemployed 12 million added to the unemployment numbers i think pakistan’s in big trouble i just wonder whether your approach is weakening pakistan on the world stage you recently hang on you recently tweeted a message saying that imran khan and i’m going to quote you will you please be sonified fascism now imran khan imran khan has stood up for pakistan’s interests in a very tough stand against india and mr modi which you will know he has also conducted a foreign policy which sees deepening economic ties with china which is precisely the same policy that you followed he also is trying to use pakistan’s influence it seems to bring the taliban to the peace table in afghanistan what is it about these policies that you think personifies fascism well i i think that perhaps uh you haven’t studied or you haven’t had the time to look into what uh fascism he’s doing you stand by that yeah of course i do i do there is the fastest government in pakistan as of now you’re trying to mobilize tens of thousands of people on the streets in different pakistani cities even when there’s a covered pandemic your message is that we must bring imran khan’s government down by the middle of the year and have new elections you haven’t succeeded so far what’s your next move well mr secretary i think you haven’t seen mr imran khan during the same you see the pdm uh gatherings started from 16th of october you haven’t seen democratic movement yeah yeah but you haven’t seen in the same period in the last six weeks you haven’t seen the the gatherings the large gathering of mr iran himself the corporate covenant would not spread your next move ultimate aim and our ultimate goal is supremacy of uh you know democracy in pakistan the free and fair election which would be transparent and should be acceptable to the world observer and presumably the rule of law and the rule of law would you go home to facebook of course i will rule of law and and transparency and you know the the constitution has to be all institution has to work within the domain uh which has been prescribed in the constitutional islamic republic of pakistan i think we’ll be very happy so right now when when i when i tweeted i have no regret and it is the ground reality i mean i can give you you know a prime minister who who calls who calls the director general of the federal investigation agency and gives him names and says go and and and arrest them i mean what sort of uh you know governance this is well we we we have to end it there but i do thank you very much indeed for coming into the hard times it’s a pleasure thanks man it’s a pleasure many things you .