The Connected Parent: An Expert Guide to Parenting in a Digital World

Jonathan Zittrain: All right. And with that opening benediction. Jonathan Zittrain: I name is Jonathan Zittrain and I’m so pleased to welcome you all to our event today are being a joint effort of the Berkman Klein Center for Internet and society and Harvard University and the Harvard Jonathan Zittrain: Law School Library Jonathan Zittrain: For a conversation with professors John Palfrey. And where’s Gasser on the occasion of the release of their new book, The connected parent and expert guide to parenting in a digital world. Jonathan Zittrain: And it will be moderated by our dear colleague Professor Leah Plunkett so we’re so pleased to have everybody here and I think my role is simply Jonathan Zittrain: To do a little bit of introduction of everybody and then let the hounds be released and I couldn’t be more pleased to be doing those introductions, since these are truly three of my favorite people together in one place. Jonathan Zittrain: Where’s Gasser is somebody who has stood for connectivity and interoperability among people, places and things across culture, language and national boundary Jonathan Zittrain: Among many other things he has started a network of internet and society research centers for which the Berkman client center is but one, I think we’re now up to over 100 Jonathan Zittrain: Which is extremely exciting and maybe one of us will have a presence of mind, put a link to that network into the chat room if it can reach beyond the panelists to those attending Jonathan Zittrain: Words, as someone who, among other things, has been a law professor at the University of St gallon and for 10 years has been on the faculty and Jonathan Zittrain: The executive director of the Berkman Klein center and has been someone with john Palfrey thinking so much about what the internet is doing with for and to our children and what it’s drawing from them and Jonathan Zittrain: Both he and john have now been thinking about it long enough that the kids, they were thinking about 10 years ago are now adults who can look back and Jonathan Zittrain: See how much they were right and it’s been such a pleasure to see their thinking evolve from books such as born digital than a successor volume appoint digital and now this one. Jonathan Zittrain: The expert guide to kids in a digital world.

So thank you so much for being willing to be here today and for talking about your work with JOHN AND JOHN Palfrey 02:49 - Jonathan Zittrain: Hard to summarize in a tweet or a single sentence one would begin with his commitment to open knowledge to seen an educated thoughtful kindly world I’m himself educated at Harvard University and University of Cambridge also a pivotal Jonathan Zittrain: Era of time as the executive director of the Berkman Klein center and as the head of the Harvard Law School Library Jonathan Zittrain: And as one of the founders of the Digital Public Library of America looking to see what new institutions and institutional relationships might be able to come together. Jonathan Zittrain: In the name of open knowledge john also served as head of school at Philips Andover Academy Chair of the Knight Foundation, or I think is, it’s called Chair of Knight Foundation. Jonathan Zittrain: And is currently PRESIDENT OF THE MacARTHUR FOUNDATION. Jonathan Zittrain: And as I said, open knowledge is one of John’s things but so to his kindness, looking for a world, how to build it and how to introduce our kids to it. Jonathan Zittrain: That is not just a world of threats and worries, but a world of building and of opportunity and of connection with one another.

And I think that’s what we might hear some of today. Jonathan Zittrain: And finally our moderator and question asked her, in the first instance extraordinary Jonathan Zittrain: Leah Plunkett a scholar author mentor and civic actor and in the author category, Leah herself wrote a book, Sharon good on Jonathan Zittrain: The behavior of parents online in relation to their kids. So it’s really under one roof virtually we have Jonathan Zittrain: Such a bumper crop of expertise on exactly the topics we’re going to talk about today. Jonathan Zittrain: He is a graduate of Harvard College and Harvard Law School has done work around the rights of children and other citizens, including board service and the ACLU of New Hampshire serves on the Harvard Law School and UNH law faculties and Jonathan Zittrain: If I’m remembering correctly has a background and improvisational comedy, so not to set expectations too high for your questions today but Leo. We’re so grateful and glad that you’re here to Jonathan Zittrain: To to serve as MC.

And with that, I turn it over to you to do just that. Thank you all so much for being here. Leah Plunkett: Thank you so much, Jonathan. It is such a pleasure and a privilege to be in the company of three such towering figures in this field. Leah Plunkett: And even more important three such extraordinary human being super teachers superb scholars and world class mentors. Leah Plunkett: So with that, I’m going to launch in to a discussion of the connected parent, which I have read with enthusiasm from cover to cover, and I have lots of questions, starting with Leah Plunkett: You are pioneering scholars and understanding youth and digital life you are also world class educators of young people.

What made you decide or isn’t john to shift your audience a bit and write a guide for all of us, parents, of which I am one about navigating digital life for our children. Urs Gasser: Thank you so much for this very warm introduction, Jonathan, mentally, and for many years of collaboration, excuse me, and john. It’s great to see you. I wish we could be together in one space. Urs Gasser: Not virtually but physically but wait for that moment non fellas, just a wonderful gift to be together today and share a few experiences and thoughts. Urs Gasser: I would also like to thank our team. The youth and media team who’s been instrumental in the research behind the book.

So why did you write the book address to parents when usually we have different audiences, a good question. My personal answer is, I’ve been struggling Urs Gasser: Translating stuff we’ve learned about youth and digital technology and research to my life as a parent, I have two children. Urs Gasser: Aged 16 and 19 and it’s been just really hard to make sense of, you know, issues like the screen time. When should they get like laptops and and and iPhones to all the way how much very today be about Urs Gasser: The excessive gaming, in my view, that my son is doing. And so we felt that you know are struggling making sense of the best data that’s available, some of which we’ve contributed Urs Gasser: Ourselves with the team, how that is applicable to actual parenting, which isn’t a whole other level of decision making, where you usually can pick up the phone and first ask a research and what’s the right thing to do.

08:07 - Urs Gasser: And that was a big part of the motivation at a very personal level to share that insight. Maybe one other Urs Gasser: Thought is also we care a lot about young people about children and Urs Gasser: To, you know, enable a good use of technology and a very maybe optimistic version we thought it’s it’s helpful to Urs Gasser: Work with parents who are closest quite often closest to children and give them some sound advice, how they can Urs Gasser: Empower day children as they navigate together this increasingly connected interconnected world. Speaking of interest KNOW WHAT TO YOU, JOHN If you, if you want to add your sensor if my teenage John Palfrey: sewers. Thank you, but first let me thank the of course for moderating and Jonathan for such a nice introduction and all our colleagues are coming together. John Palfrey: Leah, I have read cover to cover this fabulous book as well. Sharon. Good.

I also got to read it earlier in a draft form and then in the printed version that’s MIT Press and a great 09:15 - John Palfrey: Volume for parents and takes up a topic that we do in part which is privacy but relative to the way we as parents act. John Palfrey: Like to our kids information which is just the the best and most deep work on that topic. So everybody will read it and yeah exactly. And if I can also just say a few thank yous as worsted to the team that helped us in producing the connected parent John Palfrey: Know book notebook that that anybody’s written the book knows that you do not do it alone. You do it as a team, no matter what. And the key members of that team were at the youth and Media Lab in Sandra Cortese and Alexa hussy, for sure. John Palfrey: And I never do anything anyway without a fabulous library and at my side goes to Sturgis John Palfrey: Who has been involved in the Harvard libraries, the Berkman client center and also John Palfrey: Had Phillips Academy Library was a great guide in this book, too.

So if go sure if you’re out there or Alexa, or Sandra please know you have our love and gratitude for support on this book and Leah tear tear. Good question. John Palfrey: Yeah, well, you know, part of it, of course, is doing our homework in public, as parents, and trying to be better at. So we’re on the way we make mistakes. John Palfrey: And versus kids and my kids grew up together in the Cambridge public schools. My kids are at and 15 so just slightly off an age but but essentially the same as versus and it’s been fun to see them grow up together even sometimes at a distance because of the Swiss us divide, but John Palfrey: You know, part of it is, of course, how we try to do our work as well as we can, relative to those kids, but so the other category of people that prompted John Palfrey: At least my interest in writing this particular book was that in doing book talks and Leah, you’ll recognize this experience when you go out to, you know, a school or you go out to a group of parents John Palfrey: you’re presenting research, the first question. And the last question on most of the questions in between our database, right.

So what should we do 11:06 - John Palfrey: And after reading born digital and I think doing two full rewrite some better between you know 2008 and 2016 and various iterations. John Palfrey: You know, consistently, I would try say, Well, I’m a researcher, you know, I could tell you what I did, as a parent, but you know, I’m not really in the advice, giving business. It just seemed like that was inadequate. John Palfrey: And then we ought to try at least, but they’ve. So what’s different about this book is on every topic we take a stand and we say, here’s what we think you ought to do based on our John Palfrey: Best experience the best research we’ve had out there. We know it’s not perfect. We know every parent is different, and particularly in this, you know, very broad increasingly John Palfrey: Divided world that there are lots of experiences, but doing the best we can with the data and with a consistent philosophy which is this idea of connected parenting.

11:49 - John Palfrey: So that’s really what we’ve been trying to do is to translate all of that learning over a period of time and experience into something that could be usable sort of on a ticket or leave it basis not saying we’re definitely right, so that was the idea Leah Plunkett: And now I have a law professor question because I just can’t help myself. I’m going to zoom in on some terminology Leah Plunkett: You use the term connected parent and to what are you referring the ways in which digital technology creates connection, the ways in which family members, create emotional connection and mediated by devices or a more multifaceted concept. Leah Plunkett: And I’m not afraid to cold call gentlemen. Urs Gasser: Well, I think we have taken a common law approach to this definitional question that I’d actually rather pragmatic one. So the idea behind this connected Urs Gasser: Parent concept or philosophies relatively straightforward.

The first and most important dimension of it is to keep communication lines open with our children. Urs Gasser: That sounds very trivial, but as we all know, as parents also observers of young people, you know, families, that’s always a given. And it’s a real effort and requires a lot of trust building and it’s also an investment. Urs Gasser: Over all the second dimension is some sort of Urs Gasser: Not only half communication lines open, but specifically talk about digital technologies and the use of technologies, the experiences. And when I say talk, then I don’t mean just talk at kids, but importantly Urs Gasser: Even more important in our experience is actually to listen to young people, what their life experiences online are as they use cell phones and, you know, navigate all these platforms.

So, and there is one tweak to it, then that is their parents. Urs Gasser: Ideally, not only some sort of listen and learn, but also try out themselves, the different technologies that their children are so deeply immersed in so we encourage parents not only you know to browse Urs Gasser: The web, but also to play games to figure out how to talk hurts or to understand what this this hype about Instagram and, you know, social media. Urs Gasser: And then the last element of the connected parent approach is not only to look at technology, but really add the reality and the context of young people themselves what what’s happening around them. What do they care about what that water moved by what they’re struggling with Urs Gasser: And it’s these sorts of connections connection between the parent and the young person the connection between the parent and the technology and some sort of a network approach the parent, the young person and around the that’s at the core of this connected parent approach. Leah Plunkett: THANK YOU, JOHN, anything to add or should I jump to my next question. John Palfrey: I think go the next one.

Otherwise, we’ll just talk all day on the first one. And if I John Palfrey: Versus do thorough and good so Leah Plunkett: So you propose that the connected parents should apply what you call the Goldilocks principle to screen time. I have a five and a nine year old. So this is a reference that resonates with Me. Leah Plunkett: That Goldilocks principle further and offer some examples of its application. John Palfrey: Absolutely. Thank you and screen time, of course, is one of the things we put right up in front of the books we know that the parents have a concern about it.

15:35 - John Palfrey: I think it’s an overplayed concern and we make that perfectly playing in the book, but it is one that certainly as quickly on parents mind. John Palfrey: The Goldilocks principle, of course, comes from a children’s book if you are not of a of a culture that reads about Goldilocks basic idea of course being not too hot, not too cold and having a nice warm John Palfrey: Balance there. And I think that we, we make this argument throughout the book in a number of ways, which is that John Palfrey: I think it is neither a good idea to demonize the technology or give it. In fact, the technology too much agency itself. John Palfrey: Nor to fantasize it and just assume that because we have internet, you know, everybody is now brilliantly educated or whatever we know from, you know, decades of studying this, and neither of those is true. John Palfrey: But trying to find something that’s not kind of a week synthesis in the middle.

But actually, some clear pathway through is I think what we’re aiming for in the book. John Palfrey: And so what we do is break down what we think is the best advice on screen time by age. So I do think that if you’re talking about a child who’s just born through a child who’s, you know, John Palfrey: In the first couple of years. There’s no real argument saying that is a good idea to have them exposed to screens a lot now during. Cool. Good to have them connect for the first time with their grandparents just doesn’t want to John Palfrey: Of course, that makes sense of like, you shouldn’t keep them off screens.

For that reason, but neither should you buy into the baby Einstein, you know, marketing strategy that says if you’re not having them, you know, exposed to certain 16:57 - John Palfrey: Videos that they will never catch up academically that’s John Palfrey: baloney. Now as you grow older, you get to the other end of that spectrum and you get to kids who are John Palfrey: The in their later teens, as were some my kids are. And the idea of having technological controls on their computer is John Palfrey: Just simply not going to work. Right. It’s, it’s, they, they’re going to route around it and be it will undermine the trust that they have with us as parents, and it’s just a bad idea. John Palfrey: But between those two poles.

There’s actually a lot you can do and it’s going to 17:24 - John Palfrey: Vary depending upon you know your family circumstance we are highly aware that there are single parent households out there where people are working multiple jobs and certainly during this time of John Palfrey: coven that you really need, you know, to be more flexible in that way. We certainly know that during this period, kids are learning a lot of their John Palfrey: schoolwork. In addition to the out of school work through these kinds of devices. I think it sort of blown up the screen time debate in that in that way as well. We can come back to that. John Palfrey: They have that’s an area of your expertise we should flip it back to you for for a sense, as well as to say, you know, we really, really, really.

17:59 - John Palfrey: Think that it is more important to think about the quality of what kids do online rather than the quantity of time. So we know they spent a lot of time on online and it would be good, that that were John Palfrey: Time spent in reasonably productive ways and there are less productive way so they can also spend time that is just true in life in general and John Palfrey: We think it applies in the internet era as well as before that. So that would be a version of the Goldilocks principle, we do have a handy chart and the kind of thing says different ages is where we think the research shows John Palfrey: But it’s much more important, I think, to, to come up with a plan for your family and then be as consistent as you can. Leah Plunkett: So building on the notion that there are always ways in all areas of life and it all ages to use time more or less responsibly and i mean i think your book concluded that all of us parents always use our digital devices responsibly. Right. Leah Plunkett: Just kidding. So next question throughout your book you encourage all of us parents to be honest and forthcoming.

18:58 - Leah Plunkett: With our children about our own evolving relationship with digital life for instance you suggest that we parents use our own struggles Leah Plunkett: To limit our tech use as a conversation starter with our children about screen time and that all of us adults, whether in our roles as Leah Plunkett: parents, educators, or otherwise become comfortable saying, Oops. And sorry, when we inadvertently offend in our digital discourse. Leah Plunkett: In taking this advice we adults would make ourselves more vulnerable more vulnerable than might be comfortable for all of us. So what is your advice for how we might get comfortable with a greater level of personal vulnerability Urs Gasser: Well, I think, you know, being truly connected means to be vulnerable and Urs Gasser: Article, particularly in the sense that Urs Gasser: I feel when having open communication channels, whether it’s with friends or coworkers or in this case with a family member with a young person. Urs Gasser: My assumption is always that I may get it wrong, that I may, I may have, you know, one perspective, but not the only one.

And that I can learn something from the person I’m talking to 20:21 - Urs Gasser: That I don’t have all the answers, sometimes more just concerns or questions or ideas. And it’s that sort of, I think, vulnerability that is pre requested to have meaningful connections, not only with our children, but with other human beings and Urs Gasser: That’s almost like a lifestyle choice. I would say are we willing to listen. Are we willing to go into even difficult conversations Urs Gasser: With this with this acknowledgement that I may be wrong. But still, you know, being true to your own perspective sent concerns as well. And now I understand that’s perhaps a privileged position to have this Urs Gasser: You know ability to go into conversations like that.

And it’s perhaps also a little bit more of a Western idea of parenting. If you Urs Gasser: Go into different cultures as we do you, you see that parents may not have, you know, a cultural setup where it’s okay to not have the answers, but they’re expected to have the answers. Urs Gasser: But we still think there are ways how you can be a connected parent, not the less. So for instance, Urs Gasser: There are ways to structures conversations where you start by listening, what the young person is sharing about an issue they care about. Urs Gasser: Or you can start with a more kind of a topic.

What say you know 21:54 - Urs Gasser: privacy issues and and understand, you know, and share what do you know about it and try to empower the young person by sharing your skills and your ideas and then vice versa, be in conversation. Urs Gasser: To hear and learn how that sounds from the other perspective. So I think there are ways to some sort of match with vulnerabilities across cultural contexts and parenting styles and still being a connected parent, but by default. This yes connectedness comes with one ability John Palfrey: I love the sense of humility orders that come through your comments. I think it is a big part of what we are urging in this in this approach and John Palfrey: Leah. You mentioned the, the, oops, as a strategy.

And I think that that’s one that might take us into a slightly different direction as well, which is the diversity chapter that we wrote about and 22:47 - John Palfrey: In that particular case. That’s an oops that a mistake that I made that. So I will, I will own up to it, but but one. I think that was least helpful for me to reflect on John Palfrey: And part of what we were thinking about with these topics, is how do we bring our kids into the different conversations that are John Palfrey: Important for us as parents. So to the extent we as parents feel that diversity, equity, and inclusion are important things to talk about at our dinner table that’s true in our household and I know in nurses as well. And I suspect in your stew. John Palfrey: With that this was a good entree and some of that actually is playing out online. So in the particular example, we use in the book was one where when I was head of school.

23:24 - John Palfrey: I was writing about our policies relative to transgender students and we ended up creating a dormitory for students who were John Palfrey: Non gender binary. So it was a. The idea was to have a dormitory. That was neither for boys and our girls, necessarily, but we’re for what we call them gender dormitory. John Palfrey: In the context of that and in something I typed probably too quickly on Facebook or Twitter, I can’t remember. I use the term transgender Ed transgendered. And very quickly, you got John Palfrey: Some notes back saying that was an inappropriate term and and why and so forth. And at that time, there was a fair amount of discussion about what the desired and you know appropriate in terms of being John Palfrey: That, to my mind was a really good example to say, Oops, I’m so sorry. I didn’t mean to, you know, give a fence.

I’m waiting into something that’s a, you know, an important 24:11 - John Palfrey: And complex topic but you know obviously don’t have all the answers, or the right terms and to go from there. And so using those kinds of moments where we inevitably make mistakes as I did in that case. John Palfrey: Both as a learning experience for yourself. But I think as an entree for a mode of hopefully learning and connecting to others, but also to into importance and occasionally you know tricky topics as as diversity, equity inclusion can be Leah Plunkett: A building off of wonderful openness, I’m going to bring in a question from our Q AMP a tool we have a media scholar from Eastern Europe, who is focused on the generational aspects of media. Leah Plunkett: And this question asks, If you could unpack a little bit more what parents can learn from children teens and tweens when it comes to technology. So john wonderful example of an equity.

25:05 - Leah Plunkett: Educational moment that you had. And so sort of building on that. Are there some other areas in which both of you, either in your capacity as parents or a scholars have learned things about technology use from the kids tweens and teens in your personal life or in your research. John Palfrey: An awesome question and an end over. There’s a thing that kids were summoned to talk about, which is if you wanted to get the other person to speaker at the terms you throw them in the popcorn. So I’m going to send a popcorn over the course because John Palfrey: He is really, I think, along with Sandra and others emphasize that exactly this point in terms of how they run the youth and Media Lab at the Berkman client center so worse. Maybe you should have the lead on this one.

I 25:50 - Urs Gasser: Mean, there’s so much I’ve learned, we’ve learned from from young people, but maybe just kind of one overarching theme is Urs Gasser: I still remember when I sent the first email. So the way some sort of I got into Urs Gasser: The digital technology space is by drawing a sharp distinction between what’s offline and the real world. And what’s online and some sort of cyberspace that’s turned me respect them, believe it or not. Urs Gasser: And and of course we all know and experience ourselves today you are encoded that the lines are blurring between not only online and offline. Urs Gasser: But between spaces. More generally, is you know home and office space is Palm Desert very, very can play there are glaring boundaries and and so forth.

And my feeling is that young people have often a more sophisticated 26:49 - Urs Gasser: More, More tacit knowledge may be the right term way of approaching these highly interconnected spaces where yes, there may be an online. Urs Gasser: component to it. Yes, there may be an offline component to it and they’re not the same, but they’re integrated get Urs Gasser: Follow different norms and rules of sharing, for instance, or you know of connecting and Urs Gasser: Matching audiences and the reach of the message. And that’s an unbelievable skill and and wealth of experience. Now I would hasten to add, there also blind spots, we can talk more about that those two Urs Gasser: But I feel this what it means to live these highly integrated lives where technology plays such a vital role in almost anything you do, whether it’s, you know, looking up news or whether deciding to wear a mask outside or not or whatever it is. Urs Gasser: online and offline play hand in hand.

And I’ve had to grow into that and I think young people have 28:01 - Urs Gasser: More some sort of a great to sensibility also to some of the nuances. Now, last caveat, of course, I also acknowledge that 90 parts of the world. Urs Gasser: We have huge access barriers and participation gap. So I want to acknowledge that for sure. So talking a little bit about my own experience being again privileged and having access to technologies. Leah Plunkett: I’m going to shift us a little bit from the wonderful insights that we can get from our kids and tweens and teens and talk a little bit about those fears, where you recommend Leah Plunkett: That parents take the lead. So I have sort of a question that I had.

And then a couple of, I’m just going to add in a couple of popcorn. JOHN If I’m using that term correctly that are coming in. Leah Plunkett: Through the Q AMP a tool. So the question I had was that you are encouraging parents to take up issues of online safety. Leah Plunkett: With our kids the same way that we should have the talk in quotes, with them about sex and drugs. So when we have this talk. What should we say Leah Plunkett: Don’t we run the risk of coming across as anti tech or out of touch.

If we frame guidance on digital safety, the same way we would sex and drugs. Leah Plunkett: And a related to time to threads that have come in from the question tool specifically how might we talk in this talk to our kids tweens and teens about Leah Plunkett: What questioners are calling me addictive aspect of social media. The power that the YouTube algorithm has and also sensitizing their consciences, so that they are engaging online in ways that are safe. Leah Plunkett: Both for them physically, but also in terms of being an ethical and virtuous connected citizen themselves. John Palfrey: Well, the that’s incredible and great great synthesis of questions. And I’ve heard set of them.

30:04 - John Palfrey: So one thing that happens in pandemics. I learned is that one watches more TV than one otherwise does and I have not been a big TV watcher, but in my household. Modern Family has been John Palfrey: Very popular seen I’ve seen most of them now with my daughter, which has been fun. John Palfrey: And one of the scenes that keeps coming up in Modern Family is the two. The two dads came and Mitch often was zip into the room of their daughter Lily to have some form of the talk show, say, do we really have to, they say no when they leave.

30:30 - John Palfrey: And so I’ve been thinking a lot about the talk and the form it takes, and I think John Palfrey: To very clearly having one version of the talk, one time obviously is not not going to work. And so in this field, like others. John Palfrey: Worse and I are arguing in favor of this connected approach, which means you’re gonna have lots of conversations of this sort, and ultimately on internet safety as in John Palfrey: The case of these attendant issues. You are not basically giving one lecture one time, but you rather you are engaged in an unfolding of John Palfrey: Conversations over the life of your kid, and at the end there so sick of having heard it before, that they’re repeating it back to you and say, Dad. Right. Already, I’m on John Palfrey: That would be good. So that I think that’s the first thing is it’s, it should be, you know, a connected series of conversations specifically on safety.

31:15 - John Palfrey: Just a couple of facts which I think I’ve really held up during internet era time that are important for parents. John Palfrey: To bear in mind. So if you just were to watch the TV and you were to see To Catch A Predator that show that used to run John Palfrey: You might think that since the internet came online that kids are more likely to be abducted by somebody they meet since the Internet came along and then harmed outside John Palfrey: It turns out that that’s simply not true. So I think the best research comes out of UNH Leah up near you. John Palfrey: Where David Finkel her and his team have looked at the fact that really over the last couple decades, the likelihood of that happening is actually down, not up John Palfrey: So it is not the case that because the kids use internet or social media that they are more at risk induction now. John Palfrey: Of course it’s every parent’s worst nightmare for it to happen and it is the case, and particularly so during code, right, where else can people meet right they do meet up in dark corners of John Palfrey: The internet or versus word cyberspace and so that does happen.

It just happens in ways that 32:16 - John Palfrey: You know, we can prepare kids for so most of what we’ve seen in the research is that when kids. John Palfrey: Are in a circumstance like that they know that they are involved in a conversation, for instance about sex so they are looking for it in one way, shape, or form. They’re not really wanting, of course, to be abducted and harmed. John Palfrey: But they are in a conversation that they know is edgy. It is very infrequent. John Palfrey: That somebody that they don’t know it all comes up to them and totally fools them and then all of a sudden, oh my gosh, they’re talking about sex.

They tend to be in a 32:44 - John Palfrey: Chat environment of some sort. That’s either devoted to that topic words within a game and so forth. So part of it is, I think, for to give kids the sense of what is John Palfrey: Likely in fact going on and making sure that they have someone to reach out to to get help from so whether that is somebody in a John Palfrey: Crisis, either on their own or with somebody else that they know about crisis text line just one particular example, or they would come to you. John Palfrey: As their mom or they would go to a teacher or guidance counselor. John Palfrey: Figuring out you know the the experiences that people would would have and the ways in which they can get help if they are they John Palfrey: Find themselves in that circumstance, they’ve made a mistake. Now they need to get out.

How do they do that and what are the kinds of specific skills. But again, that can’t be one conversation that’s going to play out. John Palfrey: Over a period of time. Let me take briefly the addiction topic and then worse can pick up on some of the other elements. John Palfrey: One of the topics that comes up constantly with parents and not surprised to see it appropriately in our chat. John Palfrey: You know is whether it’s possible for kids to be addicted to using new media and there’s a raging debate on this, and neither were scenario.

Our psychiatrists or psychologists, so we can’t answer it as doctors do 33:50 - John Palfrey: The data really seem to suggest that there are disorders around using John Palfrey: Lots of technology, but maybe not an addiction, at least in the way we use that term in the United States. If you were to go to China, or to South Korea. The term addiction is more generally use John Palfrey: So we sort of adapt to the fact that, yes, it can be a disorder but we see it almost always connected to some other underlying thing going on with it with a child. So it could be that a child is, you know, there they are exploring their gender identity or they are having a John Palfrey: Struggle with anxiety, depression, or they are feeling some other John Palfrey: Kind of pain that they’re expressing through using technology. So, so much so. Very often, I think what we urge parents to do, of course, is to connect with the child first and then the technological use if that makes sense. And really, to go John Palfrey: To what those sort of underlying concerns are and then if that’s something that you can’t handle directly as a family, then to get help. So John Palfrey: I saw in the chat.

A question about treatment options there are particular places that you can go and we reference a few in the book. Of course, it depends where you are and what your means are John Palfrey: If you are in Boston, where some people are Children’s Hospital in Boston happens to have a guy named Michael rich John Palfrey: Rich is the media attrition and he has a particular practice in this area. John Palfrey: There may be you might be in Philadelphia. The Children’s Hospital there and you could find some so there may be a specialist in your area. John Palfrey: But really ultimately I think it is important to note that it’s about the underlying concern the underlying issues, the child might have been very rarely is actually about the technology, per se, but there are many things to clean up there, or improve on.

I’m sure 35:31 - Urs Gasser: This is so great that I don’t know what to actually I you tell me what direction you want to take the conversation. Leah Plunkett: So I’d like to build a little bit on some of the questions that have been coming in that are at this nexus of child protection and privacy. Leah Plunkett: So we have had some questions come through the Q AMP a tool that’s asked about Leah Plunkett: Really sort of two distinct but also related scenarios related in terms of what what are the boundaries for parents in terms of mediating children’s access to devices or two. Leah Plunkett: Apps or two programs on those devices in the name of protecting privacy. So one thread is that some parents for different reasons, perhaps socio economic limitations.

36:23 - Leah Plunkett: could share their phones with their children. Could you talk about device sharing, whether it is a Leah Plunkett: Parent sharing a phone or device sharing within a family. And of course, during the pandemic, when we are trying to do all the things online. Leah Plunkett: Those of us who are fortunate enough to work from home, keep our kids safe learning at home, and so on. There may be a few devices to go around and what might be some of the privacy considerations.

36:48 - Leah Plunkett: Within a family if your device sharing and then unrelated thread, what is an appropriate balance of a parent. Leah Plunkett: Going into a child’s device or to a program or Leah Plunkett: An app. So what is the line between respecting their autonomy and their engagement, but also when this question or sad when you might infringe on a use privacy to see what is really going on. So reflections on Leah Plunkett: Those two threads are more generally about how you drop privacy boundaries within a family space. John Palfrey: Yeah, I wonder if we could use the popcorn and on the first topic, send it over to you. Since we have the author of Sharon to it here.

I wonder how you would answer the device sharing question from your, from your perch as expert on privacy topic. Leah Plunkett: I will pop. I will accept the popcorn. And I will say that parents very often with the best of intentions or inadvertently do compromise children’s privacy, whether it is handing over a phone that Leah Plunkett: Even a very young child can navigate very quickly to all of a sudden post something to the world. You don’t want them to see Leah Plunkett: Or when a parent is taking a picture and posting it on social media or letting a child engage in a whole number of apps that may be tracking Leah Plunkett: The child through the parents phone. So I do think that completely understanding and respecting that there may be real device limitations, particularly in pandemic operation. Leah Plunkett: That parents would be very wise to, first of all, when it comes to taking information about their kids and affirmatively Leah Plunkett: Putting it out into the world use a little bit of what I sometimes call holiday card rule of thumb, and not put something on social media or broadcast it broadly.

38:39 - Leah Plunkett: If it is not something that they would feel comfortable putting in one of those old fashioned hardcopy newsletters and sending to everybody from their great art to their boss. Leah Plunkett: And in terms of the actual devices. I think that having a family privacy plan doesn’t have to be formal. It can, you know, be on a post it note, but really taking stock, a little bit. The way a company does what devices are in the home. Leah Plunkett: Which device for what purpose. Are there any devices that are owned by an employer or by a school that may be picking up even more information. So I do think Leah Plunkett: That, of course, you know, making sure that parents can get into their work and people can get into telemedicine appointments and children can get into school Leah Plunkett: Really trying to take inventory and being very careful about whose devices are going into which hands. So those are my some of my thoughts and I will Leah Plunkett: Popcorn it back over. Perhaps to either of you or both of you to talk about when, as a parent, it might be okay to kind of Leah Plunkett: infringe or go into a device that a child or a tween or a team has been working through whether that is a device owned by the parent or whether it is something that is in the child custody and control or maybe it’s never okay.

40:02 - Urs Gasser: Well, that’s definitely more in the it’s an art said not a science category of giving advice. Urs Gasser: I think as a baseline, we need to want to acknowledge that also young people and children have a right to privacy and that also applies to Urs Gasser: Visa V their parents. And that’s something we want to respect and i think is important part of of family life to negotiate these different boundaries. Urs Gasser: Of course, it changes depending on age and experiences and context where we draw these boundaries at the given moment in time, and I Urs Gasser: Really agree very much with you, Leo that having some sort of a family contract or at least a conversation around these issues. This is the way to go. And also, revisit these questions. Where does you know once Urs Gasser: Sphere of privacy.

41:03 - Urs Gasser: You know, at times, the right to be alone. Start again depends on the circumstances of life and so forth. Urs Gasser: I would say that of course becomes more important than the older the young person becomes teenager is different. I think needs right the sound and then small toddler would say Urs Gasser: But it also highlights and other I think important dimension, what you what you your early response to the on that is Urs Gasser: One question is whether we’re dealing with an emergency situation or not. Right. And the things we’re proposing here. I think work very well. If we take the longer view. Urs Gasser: As john mentioned also in the safety context to have conversations over time how we think about privacy, how we manage our own privacy.

What’s my 42:01 - Urs Gasser: You know approach to your privacy in a household, but then also talking about you know the world at large. How we share information on social media about our family life or the life Urs Gasser: So that’s the benefit if we are not in crisis mode and can really work through some of these issues and also disagree, at times, of course. Urs Gasser: But it’s a different story when when you as a parent, have to be concerned that something happened that there was an incident of identity fraud or identity theft or were there you fear that someone you know put day Urs Gasser: And Urs Gasser: DEVICE ON ON YOUR YOUR KIDS smartphone that has surveillance capabilities to track every movement or activate the camera remotely. Urs Gasser: I think these emergency situations where you have a crisis. I feel much more confident that the parent has not only Urs Gasser: A moral right but also actually an obligation to step in and intervene and of course Urs Gasser: You want to do it in a way where you know again you approached your person and respect the autonomy of this Urs Gasser: Young person as well. But I do feel that it’s a different category.

Now the last thing I want to say on this topic is, I do think when it comes to privacy, we focus now a lot of kind of relationship between parent and child. Urs Gasser: The biggest challenge I think we’re also parenting is so difficulties when it comes to the larger question of our data world that we live in and that you know we’re embedded in some Kool Aid surveillance capitalism as some sort of the larger Urs Gasser: context around us, the business models that drive some of the tech firms that give us Urs Gasser: The services and hardware that you’re using and our children are using and I think they’re really reach the limits what parents can do Urs Gasser: Through parenting and what the connect the parent is up to. I think the tools have to change. I think we have to Urs Gasser: wear the hat as parents, the hat of a citizen, where we have to advocate for stronger privacy protections and privacy laws. Urs Gasser: That also change some of these dynamics and the incentives that companies have and I just wanted to flag that that in our book, you will find several examples where Urs Gasser: Frankly, you know it’s you can’t leave it to the parents and their kids and open conversations and being connected. No, we need societal interventions we need policy changes we need better, stronger policies, not only to protect but also empower the next generation.

44:57 - Urs Gasser: I concur completely and I’m going to keep us going in that space of how you balance. Leah Plunkett: Being a connected parent or perhaps a connected educator, when you are dealing with cyberbullying. So behaviors that can Leah Plunkett: Exist in crisis mode, as well as can exist in more of an ongoing systemic lower level, but still can boil over into crisis, and especially during remote or hybrid operations still for most Leah Plunkett: K through 12 students in this country a questioner is asking how can parents and teachers work together. Leah Plunkett: To try to prevent cyber bullying during online classes as we have districts across the country that had previously not had nearly so many students and online classrooms. Now having these all or partially online setups. John Palfrey: Lead such a good question. And it’s also points to a limitation of zoom, which is, I note in our participant list and and the q AMP.

A that we have severe here who is 46:09 - John Palfrey: Aligned with this colleague Justin patching, one of the great experts on cyber bullying and if only we could just popcorn out to one of our participants, you’d have a much better answer than we could John Palfrey: Offer but certainly point you to their to their research in the area of cyber bullying, which I think is the most reliable out there, you know, over a long period of time. John Palfrey: I think the the notion of how parents and educators connect during this period is is clearly emergent so we don’t know all the answers, but I, but I do think that John Palfrey: One thing is crucial is for parents, not just to receive too far in the background in the virtual schooling environment and to use the the opportunities to to stay connected to two teachers. And my sense is the teachers are exhausted. John Palfrey: And working very, very hard during this period and having to adapt and really tricky ways administrators to and having a lot of them. John Palfrey: Close friends in those those roles and they want to continue to have this level of connectivity during this period because John Palfrey: Once it starts to fray. Once it starts to come apart the you lose the contact entirely.

And so one of the concerns I hear from fellow educators 47:16 - John Palfrey: Has been actually that in some school districts. I can’t even find kids and family. So there really is such a falling apart of the fabric that makes some of the, you know, the really acute issues around bullying. John Palfrey: Or even other kinds of safety issues, one of which came up in Chicago recently have a direct sexual assault that was seen on a zoom. There are really extraordinary issues that that will be John Palfrey: You know, made much easier to deal with. If there’s a continuing connection. So I think it’s a silly thing or basic thing to say.

47:44 - John Palfrey: But I think, making sure that the connections don’t pray and that the the kind of activities there so that there can be that that open back and forth as their as their worry signs. John Palfrey: I would say the one big thing about bullying on on the internet that we try to stress in this book is that John Palfrey: Separating it totally between cyberbullying, and just pulling doesn’t make a lot of sense. And this is one of those great examples where John Palfrey: To get to young people, there’s not kind of an offline life and then an online life. It’s just like, there’s a whole bunch of life. John Palfrey: And they’ve got conversations that are happening in different environments, whether that’s social media or send them, you know, temporary zones of things like Snapchat or it’s John Palfrey: When they actually meet up in person and so forth. And they glides, you know, very effectively between them in different ways.

48:27 - John Palfrey: And I think we have to be as facile because, you know, a student who is being bullied is probably being bullied in multiple John Palfrey: Environments, and the information and the experiences is flowing between between them. And I think being facile in that way as parents and educators is crucial. So not a simple answer to a very hard question. But, but when I think the points to a fundamental concerned in there. John Palfrey: Thank you very much. So I have a Leah Plunkett: Question that I had been wondering about, and also dovetails with the question that has come in. Leah Plunkett: Through the tools. So in your book you fast forward to future generations and you predict that someday.

A person starting staring down into a phone will look the way a 1980s hairstyle does to a teenager in 2020 49:15 - Leah Plunkett: So when will that phone image, right, all this kind of going like this become the equivalent of the Leah Plunkett: mullet or the perm and what types of digital technology do you envision displacing the phone or maybe will never be over the phone. And a question or has written in Leah Plunkett: And said actually built on this, this question. They didn’t even know I was going to ask and said, Leah Plunkett: What are some ways that parents of the future might anticipate and plan for the new types of technology that might be here in a decade or so, including things like developments and artificial intelligence, machine learning or similar and unexpected new and emerging technologies. Urs Gasser: That’s definitely more to speculate. This part of the book. Urs Gasser: I mentioned already, and it has come up throughout our conversation that, of course, Urs Gasser: It’s unbelievable how fast paced the changes are that we’ve seen even since we started working on youth and digital media issues.

So Jason, you introduced us kindly and, you know, when we started smartphones were not domain devices through which many young people are accessing 50:35 - Urs Gasser: The connected world back then. Urs Gasser: Facebook wasn’t the platform or Instagram, like the like. So we really, I think, are shaped in our thinking by this experience of change and how fast technology has evolved. How fast. Urs Gasser: Platforms have come about that we haven’t heard of even 10 years ago. Urs Gasser: And also with these changes how users and particularly young people. So come up with new ways how to make use of technology, good and bad, as we just discussed. And it’s, I think this theme of change that makes it very likely that yet again the next 10 years will bring us Urs Gasser: technological innovations and and applications that we can’t even envision today. One, you mentioned a few of them, whether it’s Urs Gasser: The power of AI and AI based technologies, whether it’s augmented and virtual reality applications, but I think there are a lot of technologies to if we think about fabrics that there’s so much innovation going on to think about Urs Gasser: Innovation in building, you know, building smart technology into clothes. Urs Gasser: There is a big merger between the bio sciences and digital technologies that may have Urs Gasser: Lead to very different interfaces how information can be accessed processed stored exchange that we do believe slightly speculatively that the future will look different and is not necessarily symbolized by the looking at the cell phone. Now again, big caveat. Urs Gasser: Honestly, I also don’t think that these changes will unfold in similar speed across all parts of the world.

I mentioned already, and we emphasize also in the book, the digital divides and so I wouldn’t expect that, you know, this is some sort of a, a global 52:54 - Urs Gasser: Parallel process of change. But I do think we will be surprised, and it’s up to everyone’s imagination to envision these futures and actually to help to shape is futures. That to me is Urs Gasser: Perhaps the most exciting part about our work that we, together with young people in the next generation can do something about what directions. These technologies develop how we want to use it. Urs Gasser: Where we draw red lines where we don’t want to rely on technology, both on good old you know human interaction and help and kindness. Leah Plunkett: Going to ask another forward looking question now less about Urs Gasser: Technology and more Leah Plunkett: About sort of our broader civic space.

So in the book you reject the proposition that our kids and teens engage in 53:50 - Leah Plunkett: Collectivism or slash activism such that they do not have a civic impact what do those terms mean another law professor Nerd question. Sorry. And why do you push back on the notion that digital engagement fails to translate into broader social and civic engagement. John Palfrey: Well, thank you for taking us into the, the last chapter of the book, which is on on kids and activism and John Palfrey: Collectivism or selective ism, or I just think derisive and silly terms. And once that are they’re easy to kind of John Palfrey: millennial shame or kids shame with the idea that just by clicking like on, you know, an Instagram a blackout page or a hashtag BL Lambert might be would somehow be not a good thing to do or that it’s insufficient or that it’s lazy somehow John Palfrey: With which I just think is sort of missing that the bigger bigger context, we see, you know, in the context of the John Palfrey: Technological space, the same dynamic that we see when we look offline, in terms of activism, which is that young people are more active in civic life probably than any time in the last 50 years according to studies such as the John Palfrey: Ones that look at incoming college freshmen have say them over a long time. John Palfrey: In terms of going out for protests in terms of the way in which they engage in volunteerism and various forms of civic action that are often not directly involved in big institutions, so John Palfrey: The mistake is by saying if in a particular election and we may find out in this one, that there John Palfrey: Just wasn’t the case.

But if the even a bigger election young people don’t turn out to vote as much as we, as adults, might like them to. John Palfrey: And then we say they’re apathetic and all they’re doing is clicking like on Facebook. I think we are missing a whole lot of what they’re actually doing. And it’s often connected to these kinds of things that they do online so John Palfrey: One thing we tracking in born digital in the final chapter of that book and then again in the connected parent is look at various instances of networks young people who across John Palfrey: Time and space are doing really interesting things. So climate is one example, certainly Black Lives Matter is another example.

55:55 - John Palfrey: We use a less known example of period.org which is a moment now to Komodo who was grew up as a teenager was from time to time homeless and realized that having John Palfrey: Period products was not available equitably so she networked a group of kids all around the world who create little chapters and make sure that people get the feminine products that they need. John Palfrey: It every time. So, and that’s something that you can’t imagine that model possibly working but for this network approach. John Palfrey: And all these cool skills that we’ve observed through our youth and Media Lab and other research of young people developing and pulling out, I would point to the work of John Palfrey: Kathy Cohen here in Chicago who does the black youth project and VoIP 100 John Palfrey: As another example of looking at participatory politics slightly outside of what we might typically measure John Palfrey: In terms of traditional institutions, but which is really dynamic and interesting. So I guess what we tried to do in this book is to shift the frame from the easy John Palfrey: You know, critical collectivism kinds of critiques of kids and then say, let’s look at what’s really interesting and what’s going on, what’s different.

What’s powerful what’s 57:00 - John Palfrey: Bringing people from the margins to the center in a variety of ways or amplifying what’s happening of emergence in important ways. Leah Plunkett: Thank you so much. And I recognize we are almost at the end of our time together. So I’d like to ask you both. You have shared a number of reflections this afternoon. Here in eastern standard time, I should say. Leah Plunkett: Maybe other times for other folks are there any other valuable lessons that your students or your own children have taught you. Leah Plunkett: About youth and digital life that you just want to make sure that the hundred plus folks joining us from all across the world are hearing as they think about the important topics covered in this book.

57:49 - John Palfrey: I’d love to leave the last word for so I’ll go really briefly and then pitch it back. Back to you, too. But I think the principal one is really just to listen to and and trust and learn from people and that’s that’s actually some of the fun and so John Palfrey: Being able to do some of you haven’t done before and do it with a kid and listen to them. It’s actually John Palfrey: Really joyful thing. And so I deeply encourage it. And I think, given how complex the world is and how many different apps. There are, they’re all there’s an endless opportunity for that kind of fun.

58:18 - Urs Gasser: THANK YOU, JOHN in that spirit I think to me young people are connection entrepreneurs. Urs Gasser: They teach me how we can stay connected, how we can make new connections, how we can have unexpected connections. Urs Gasser: Using technology, but also integrate technology in a in a different way than then I experienced it. And I learned that from the many young people. We’ve talked to, but also from our students and they helped me to think through what some of the challenges are how we should perhaps Urs Gasser: Have a still a critical perspective and the skeptical perspective when it comes to technology. And it’s this ability to connect that I think is just a real gift for which I’m super grateful.

59:09 - Urs Gasser: And we are all super grateful for your years of leadership and empathy and vulnerability in the best sense of that term. Leah Plunkett: That is captured in the connected parent, which as a parent and a scholar, I cannot recommend Leah Plunkett: Highly enough. I hope that everyone will take a look and continue to engage in these important and ever evolving questions and discussions. Thank you both. Leah Plunkett: For sharing your time and your insights and thank you so much to everyone from around the world who joined us tonight to share your interest and your energy and your insight. .