IfRFA 2020 Reflections

Kendra Albert: Awesome. Well, we have reached the point where my anxiousness sitting here in silence overcomes my desire to make sure that we’re just waiting for folks to – waiting for folks to come. So I’m going to get us started. And thank you so much to everyone for joining us. Thank you so much, to Korica and Jafet, and to our amazing interpreters, Nora and Shannon, and Nancy, our CART captioner. So this is the goal of this is just an informal conversation about sort of. The first year of IfRFA featuring two of our fantastic fellows, Korica and Jafet.

And I’d love to just sort of like let them talk a little bit about kind of their backgrounds, like where did they go to law school, what brought them there, 00:58 - and sort of what are the kinds of things that they’re interested in. As a way of sort of teeing up some of the conversations that we might have about the First Amendment more generally and their time at IfRFA. So maybe, Korica, we’ll start with you if that’s okay and go to Jafet >> Korica Simon: Yeah. That’s fine. Hi, everyone, I’m Korica. I’m a third-year law student at Cornell Law School. I originally started at the University of Washington in Seattle. And then I transferred my second year to Cornell, so that’s where I’m currently at. What brought me to law school, I’ve actually had to answer this like quite a bit since I’ve been, like, teaching assistant for this law class. And so, I’ve had a lot of undergrads ask, “why are you in law school,” because they’re interested. But basically, I pretty much always knew I wanted to go to law school, like looking at lawyer movies, I was like, oh, yeah, this is what I want to do. But I took three years off and I worked at a nonprofit in Seattle in the technology industry and I was like, oh, I actually really like technology, like I wonder if I could do something around that area.

And so, yeah, I ended up going to law school and figuring out that I wanted to do something around technology surveillance. And then I did the IfRFA program and I was like, oh, yeah, there’s connections between First Amendment and technology surveillance, and I was like, yeah, so that’s what I want to do. >> Kendra Albert: Awesome. Thank you, Korica. Quick question, before we move on to Jafet. The top movie that inspired you to go to law school when you saw the lawyers in the movies, legally blonde is a perfectly acceptable answer, in fact, that’s my answer. But I want to provide you the opportunity to share, if you want. >> Korica Simon: Yeah. I think Legally Blonde is probably, that’s like top of the list for most people. >> Kendra Albert: Surprisingly realistic. >> Korica Simon: Yeah. >> Kendra Albert: Fantastic. Awesome. All right.

Jafet, do you mind basically introducing yourself, sharing a little bit about your background and what brought you to sort of law school? 03:31 - >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: Hi to everyone, my name is Jafet. I’m 24 years old. What brought me to law school, that’s a hard question. But I really think it was this interest for I remember at first I have an interest in employment law. And labor law and all this. And I think that, like, got me into just considering law school. Currently, I am doing a JD, M.B.A. program at the University of Puerto Rico, and graduate school of Business Administration, that’s what I’ve been doing for this year. >> Kendra Albert: Awesome. Thank you.

So I want to sort of open up with a pretty broad question, which, you know, is, and Korica, you talked a little bit about this already. But the First Amendment’s basis is super, super broad, even if we only talk about the bits of it that are freedom of expression, we ignore the other four parts of the First Amendment. I totally know how many rights there are in the First Amendment. So what kind of work interests you in this space? Like what is some stuff you’re excited about or interested in? And Jafet, I’ll let you go first and then Korica. And I also don’t need to play traffic cop every time.

I just figure it’s less awkward if I’m saying one person and then the other, then both of you just sitting there and being like, who’s going first, so. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: Well, I think I was working related to the First Amendment. I always liked intellectual property so I liked to combine copyright and trademark law with freedom of expression. Also, this year, I’ve been working a lot with public records and information policies related to privacy law in Puerto Rico Rico because there’s not a lot of content in Spanish that is related to this topic. Also, I worked with SLAPP, and here, people at some point are afraid of dealing with a SLAPP suit because they are in English and they speak Spanish.

So, at some point, they get afraid of dealing with this. >> Kendra Albert: Quick follow-up question there. Are there particular topics where folks are getting hit with, so slap for those folks who don’t know stands for strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. Are there particular topics or areas where folks are getting hits with these legal threats that you’ve seen? >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: Yeah, political speech, like it seems to be the most common one, and peep just, they – they’re excited about freedom of expression and they get slapped with a take-down or anything that, defamation, libel, and it’s not funny. >> Kendra Albert: Yeah. Fair. Awesome. Korica, do you want to talk a little bit about stuff that’s interesting to you in the First Amendment space? >> Korica Simon: Yeah.

So like I said, I’ve always known I wanted to do things around technology surveillance, particularly around the ways in which government uses surveillance and just how to stop that from happening. And I started to realize that there is some connections between the First Amendment and government surveillance, a few particular things as journalists being surveilled and having to choose what stories they can and can’t cover. Inmates are surveilled in prisons and they have to be careful about what they say. You have Muslim communities having their phone lines tapped or informants within their communities and they have spoken about how they have to be careful about what they say, so that people don’t suspect them of being a terrorist. And so I just have developed this interest around the ways in which surveillance harms First Amendment rights or even like everyday people, like if you’re Googling something, like everyone has that moment where they’re like, oh, I wonder if I’m on a watch list now because I just Googled this.

And so I’m just interested 08:17 - in countering that so that people feel like they can say what they want to say; that they can protest different government actions without fear of being watched and what happens after that. >> Kendra Albert: Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, I feel like, you know, when you’re about to Google for something, I feel like there’s a moment like should I type in first, like, I’m an attorney, enter, this is something I am Googling for information about research, enter, actually Google whatever the thing is. And I feel like if I’m doing that, then probably there are other people who are doing that as well. So, you know. How to turn surveillance into a cute joke about Google monitoring our search is. Okay. Thank you both for sharing those thoughts.

So as part of the IfRFA program, you all both got to spend some time at a clinic over the summer. Jafet, we had the great pleasure of having you with us at the Cyberlaw clinic, and then Korica, you were at the Berkley, I always forget if it’s the Samuelson Glasgow clinic at Berkley Law School. And I’d love to hear you all sort of reflect on your time at those clinics and, you know, maybe from a bias standpoint I’d love to hear about sort of your best memory or a highlight of it, although general reflections would be awesome. So whoever wants to go first, go first. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: I think I could start with that one. I think it was a great experience, they were a great team working around great people that are all about team work, respect.

And they have this different perspective that made you at some point like change the way you think and respond to things. So I think that was great to have a great variety of words also. And I think for a curious thing that happened, I remember that as one of my goals I said that I would like to be better at public speaking and they got me in a meeting with a client and said, it’s your turn, Jafet, you have to do that meeting. I’m afraid. I don’t know if I can handle this. But everything, we did it great, so we survived. >> Kendra Albert: I feel obliged to say as a clinician, that I hope you were given warning that that was going to happen. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: No. I had got a warning. I got a warning. But still. >> Kendra Albert: Yeah, still.

I feel like you never forget your first, the first time it’s like your job to talk in the client meeting, so awesome. Thank you. >> Korica Simon: Yeah. I really, really enjoyed my time at the Samuelson clinic. I told my IfRFA people that, like, it was the first time that I ever felt like I belonged in a legal space. And so I’m just like so appreciative of it. Like my team was just so supportive, just like really reaffirming. Like I feel like you don’t get a lot of feedback in legal spaces, so it was just really nice to feel like, oh, yeah, I’m on the right track, I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing.

And they also just like really cared a lot about making sure I got projects I was interested in. And so they originally gave me like a very, like, just like focused solely on First Amendment issues project. And then when they heard I was also kind of interested in government surveillance and stuff, they were like, okay, let’s put you on this project, which is more geared towards government surveillance and First Amendment. And so they cared a lot about making sure that I had a good experience. And something scary but very good for me that happened was we would have meetings once a week with the whole team and everyone had to go around and say what project they were working on and they had to explain the project and explain where they were at in the process, and ironically I’ve never had to do that at any of my internships, and so I had to like – I felt like I just built a lot of skills, like understanding what I was doing and how to explain that to someone else.

And it also helped me understand my project better, weirdly enough. So I guess, like, Jafet, like I was also kind of building public speaking skills, so, yeah. >> Kendra Albert: Thank you. So, Jafet, a specific question for you. So I know that one of the projects you got to work on over the summer was on the DMCA, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and takedowns brought under the DMCA against journalists in Mexico. I’d love to hear you talk a little bit about that project generally and sort of your role in it, especially sort of given the bilingual nature of your legal practice and how that sort of played in to your success in doing that work. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: Well, this project had a special importance for me because I have seen this type of attack, like, personally.

And there have been a lot of abuses like this in Latin America and they take advantage of people in journalism. And we were essentially working on a guide to educate journalists and regular users of the Internet for Mexico, Latin American countries on how to respond on federal DMCA take down notices that at some point are, a lot of cases. They were used as a weapon to silence the journalists, that it’s definitely not the purpose of the DMCA takedown, it’s supposed to be for copyright infringement. So at some point I learned a lot during this work because I didn’t know about the DMCA take down notices, the DMCA take-down process, but I didn’t know that it was so common that they misused it, like they used it at some wrong point. And I learned about it a lot. I am actually – I actually wrote another academic article about it for a class.

So I really engaged with the topic and I’m willing to help more people in that community with it. >> Kendra Albert: Amazing. I didn’t know you’d written more about it. That’s so cool and I’m so glad to hear that. Yeah. And that part of the project is public. The guide I think came out a couple of weeks ago, so you all can go check it out. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: Yeah. It came like one week ago in Mexico, and also in Spanish for Spanish speakers. >> Kendra Albert: That’s awesome. That’s so cool. And I know it was, when we saw that project – when Jessica, my colleague, said oh, we have this project, I was like, I have the perfect person for this. So it’s so awesome to have seen it come to fruition.

17:00 - Korica, so the specific question for you, and I’m going a little bit off the script here, so feel free to not answer it if you don’t want, but I actually had the pleasure of also working with you a little bit on some work you did for the gender justice clinic at Cornell around sort of FOSTA and speech, so F-O-S-T-A, FOSTA, which is the fighting online sex trafficking act, I forget what it stands for sometimes, of 2018. And I’d love to hear you talk a little bit sort of how, like one of the things Korica I admire about you is the many ways you’re bringing your specific interests and the intersection with the First Amendment about how that project intersected with the First Amendment and how, like, how you ended up being involved in and writing part of the FOSTA and legal context guide. >> Korica Simon: Yeah. So, yeah. I’ve been in quite a bit of clinics during my time in law school. So I’ve done four of the gender justice clinic movement lawyering, criminal defense, and then my time at the Samuelson clinic. And, yeah, I think all of them except maybe criminal defense dealt with First Amendment and government surveillance issues.

18:36 - So like the gender justice clinic, liken Kendra said, I worked on writing a document explaining FOSTA and how it was originally said that it would prevent sex trafficking, but that’s not actually what it’s been doing, prevent sex trafficking. It had a lot of harm placed on sex workers. And the connection to that, which First Amendment, is that sex workers can no longer chat online like they used to have different websites where they could share resources, they could vet their clients and make sure that this was a legit person, that this person wouldn’t harm them. They could advertise online but with FOSTA it’s pretty much taken that away because companies are scared that the government will go after them for allowing that content on their website. Sorry, I’m trying to explain this without like diving into the weeds of things. But obviously, there’s a connection because sex workers can no longer use their First Amendment rights, they can’t communicate.

It’s placing them in danger over, yeah, government surveillance, basically. And I also did the Movement Lawyering Clinic this semester and we got to pick which organizations we wanted to work with. And I worked with Palestine legal and Muslim Justice League, which are two amazing organizations. And ironically I also got to work on First Amendment issues. I particularly chose those because they dealt with First Amendment and government surveillance.

20:30 - And, yeah, I think like my time at IfRFA, like, before I was in IfRFA, I didn’t know for sure if I wanted to go into the First Amendment space, and then having done IfRFA and worked with the Samuelson Clinic, I was like, okay, yeah, this is what I want to do. So, yeah, I’ve been really lucky to have this experience and know that this is what I want to do because this was an easy way to get into the First Amendment field. Sorry, I feel like I’m just ranting now >> Kendra Albert: No. I mean, I am going to eat up with a spoon, put on our promotional posters, excerpts from that, so thank you. And I didn’t know that you’d done work with the Muslim Justice League through the Movement Lawyering Clinic, that’s so cool.

Now I’m jealous of Cornell’s movement lawyering clinic. As always, thank you for the kind words about IfRFA. So I think, you know, the next thing I wanted to just ask about is, you know, in addition to the clinic, a clinical placement over the summer, you all got to participate in a seminar with me, which was a highlight of the summer. Every week, Wednesday at noon, we all got to hang out. And I’d love to hear if you have anything that stands out from or like particular moments from the seminar that you remember, and I am absolutely not going to be offended if you talk about all of our incredible guest speakers, which were for me very much highlights.

Yeah, I’d love to hear if you think there were particular things there that changed how you thought or that stand out to you. >> Korica Simon: I can go, if that’s all right. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: Go ahead. >> Korica Simon: Okay. So I particularly remember we had a guest speaker, Dr. Apryl Williams, and she came in to speak to us about work spaces, how we present ourselves and what to do when your workplace becomes toxic. And I worked before law school, so like I said, I worked for three years at a nonprofit, but I still feel like I have a hard time navigating work spaces, and so that was just like so useful for me.

And one of the things she spoke about is how, like, on interviews she doesn’t feel the need to, like, change her appearance, and I think for black people that’s something we often feel the need to do. And so it was just like very nice hearing her say that because I was already thinking about how I wanted to present myself in interviews around this time, since I’m interviewing for full-time jobs, and she was just like very real firming, she was like you should feel free to physically present yourself however you want to, because you’re going to do that on the job, which makes a lot of sense. But, I don’t know, it just made me feel more confident in myself and that’s why I have my hair how I have it right now and it’s not straight and it’s how I want it. But, yeah, it was just very reaffirming that you don’t have to change yourself, that you can go to interviews like yourself. And how to deal with firms when they are toxic, like here are the steps you can take, but at some point it may become so toxic that you have to leave, and that’s also nice to hear someone say that, yeah, sometimes you do have to leave; like there’s nothing else you can do.

Because I feel like, for me I have like I have to fight and I’d have to like make it work, and sometimes you just can’t. So, I don’t know, I really enjoyed that talk a lot. >> Kendra Albert: Thank you. Dr. Williams is continually an inspiration to me, so I was grateful that you all got to hear from her. Jafet, do you have a moment that you would like to share? >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: Yeah. I have, actually I remember two that I really like a lot.

It was when we speak about or have a conversation about qualified immunity and its implications for First Amendment rights, because it was this moment that the disease and the start of Black Lives Matter movement and all the things that happened. But they were also having some movements here in Puerto Rico and they were specifically relevant for an article that I was working on, so that was really great. And also, I remember, I think it was attorney, was it Remy Green? He spoke a lot of struggle versus OBCC center, in New York, and it was a SLAPP suit, if I remember well, but it was a cyber bullying, and breach of contract claims, leave it right there, but I think it was specifically relevant about me and I really learned a lot about them cln. >> Kendra Albert: Yeah. I think it was, just reflecting a little bit myself, it was a summer that was valuable to come together in community and be present with each other around sort of the after math of the George Floyd murder, and I think as we were all kind of figuring out like how does our day- to-day work as lawyers or as, you know, clinical students or interns in this space like intersect with, like, these moments of like hope for systemic change and like sort of the reality, like the realities of violence. So, yeah, I think that that – I remember the discussion about qualified immunity because in some ways, like, it can be hard as a lawyer to both process the enormity of sort of the kind of violence inherent in things like the criminal legal system or policing in the U.S.

, and holding in our heads like what are the doctrinal realities, what is qualified immunity and what does it do and holding those both at the same time and I was grateful to have space with you and both of you and our colleagues to talk about both of those things without thinking we had to talk about one or the other. So that’s my moment that I’ll share. Any other – so I think we’re going to open it up to guess from the audience. But two more sort of quick questions before we get there. Anything else you all want to share about the IfRFA experience, like things you might tell a law student who is interested in applying or things you wish you knew going in? I think I’ve asked this question to you all before so I may know some of the answers. But I’m curious as to them, nonetheless. >> Korica Simon: Yeah. I think that for people who are interested in First Amendment but they’re not sure, I think that this is a great program to do.

I think that – I don’t know, like there’s not that many avenues to exploring First Amendment, like not a lot of law schools have First Amendment clinics. They have started to pop up more. But it can be a kind of hard area, I think, to get into and I think IfRFA was like just a very clear avenue for me and one that cared about people of color and getting us into this space. And so I just felt like this was a great way to dip my toes into this. And I also want to say that I think that this is also a great experience because clinics are usually, like they’re usually better about welcoming students into the space and getting them set up from what I’ve observed from working like with nonprofits as a legal intern versus clinics, they usually know where you’re at and what you’ve learned and what you may need to work on since they’re close, like they’re in the academic environment. And so I feel like it’s just a good experience because they’re fully prepared to take you on and grow your skills. Like they’re so organized. And I just can’t recommend clinics enough.

So I think that’s also, like in addition to IfRFA being just a good entry space into this field, you’re also going to a clinic that is prepared for you as well because they know 30:08 - that you’re new to this area and how to grow your skills. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: I want to add to that, I think it’s a great opportunity and a great environment for learning. And if you’re really interested or you’re maybe thinking about First Amendment law, you should consider it. Like it’s a great opportunity. It’s a great environment for learning. I think that’s been one of the top things I always try to look for >> Kendra Albert: Thank you. Thank you both. Again, my next ad for clinics. But I appreciate you all sharing that. So before we sort of open it up to questions from the audience, I wanted to ask if you all had any sort of, just like reading suggestions or things you’re interested in or following that you would recommend to folks interested in free expression.

We talked about this a little bit, but yeah, very much curious about whether there’s stuff that you’ve been reading or thinking about and would recommend to others. >> Korica Simon: You know, I have not been reading – >> Kendra Albert: Or you all are in law school and you don’t have time to read things for fun and I should stop asking questions that you can’t answer, that’s also fair. >> Korica Simon: I have like three books that I am looking at on my coffee table that I have not read but I really want to. And I think, Kendra, you already know one of these, and it’s Race After Technology. I have Edward Snowden’s book Permanent Record. I have so many of them that I want to read but I haven’t gotten to them.

I would actually 32:02 - love to know if you have recommendations that I don’t know about >> Kendra Albert: I’m going to come to Jafet, which will give me time to brainstorm. I also admire that we’ve now fully embodied the clinical spirit where Korica is like you asked me this question, I’m going to turn it back to you which I think is a good embodiment of IfRFA practice. But Jafet, let’s go to you and in the meantime I’ll think of something, because to be honest,. I haven’t read shit since the pandemic started, but I’ll do my best to come up with an answer. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: Since I’ve been more into journalism work I’ve been reading this book that is called Journalism Under Fire, protecting the future of investigative reporting. It’s great. At some point it talks about the slap suits.

And also, it’s not that related to freedom of expression, but it’s great for writing, it’s like the nation’s top advocates, it’s really great for writing. And if someone is interested in reading something in Spanish, I don’t know, but I’d have some – it has a really nice article that explains in Spanish what it’s freedom of expression related to the digital content, it’s called (speaking Spanish). And also, it’s related from the federal law but in Spanish. It’s great for understanding. >> Kendra Albert: Awesome. All right. Thank you, Jafet, for A, that excellent answer, and B, giving me time to figure out what I was going to say. I like Korica have a bunch of books that I have not read that are sitting there.

One book that I did read over the pandemic period that I actually would highly recommend is called Safe Sex. It’s a comic book of the experience of sort of sex workers in a dystopian future, so it’s spelled SFSX, and it’s by Tina Horn. And among other authors. And I think it actually talks a lot about surveillance and, like, First Amendment expression and but told through the lens and the experience of sex workers. So that’s a book I’ve really enjoyed that I read. And then the book that I’m like sort of most excited to dig into when I at some point have time, is Dean Spade, who is a law professor at Seattle University, has, thank you, Korica, has a new book called Mutual Aid, which is on sort of mutual aid networks and networks of solidarity and that’s something I’m excited to dig into because I think that’s been a really important force during the pandemic is like mutual aid organizations, pandemic, they are communities sort of working to take care of each other. I don’t have a First Amendment angle for it quite yet, but I’m sure I’ll find one.

It will probably make an appearance in some way 35:55 - in our IfRFA seminar next summer. But, awesome. Well, now that my amazing IfRFA folks have forced me to answer my own questions, it’s time for you all to force us to answer questions. “Force” is a strong word. But any questions from any of the audience about the program, about folks’ experiences, about sort of things that you might want to know more about that we already touched on? And you can use the Q&A tool if you have one. All right. We have one from a familiar face, Jasjot, who ask a question that should have been included on my initial list but fortunately they’re here to jump in with it. So like I think what they ask is sort of what did you experience as a member of IfRFA that’s unique, or I guess to put it another sort of way and hopefully I’m fair to their question, what felt unique or different about IfRFA as a space from other spaces that you might have been in as like a law student or been in, you know, even in your clinic.

You both look like you’re thinking, so I don’t want to feel rude calling on y’all. >> Korica Simon: I think kind of like what we’ve already talked about a little bit, when we were really starting to meet once a week was when all of the protests had started and I feel like – yeah, I was actually – so I actually split my summer, maybe I shouldn’t say this, but I actually split my summer – >> Kendra Albert: You can absolutely say that. It is a thing that you are absolutely allowed to do with IfRFA. >> Korica Simon: Yeah. So I split my summer, I did it at one place and then I did the Samuelson clinic. >> Kendra Albert: Korica, you can totally say what you want.

38:00 - >> Korica Simon: I’m trying not to because I’m about to get to the part that I shouldn’t. >> Kendra Albert: Oh, okay. Got it. >> Korica Simon: But we didn’t really talk about what happened at my first internship and then my second internship we did talk about it and we were talking about it in the IfRFA space. And I feel like that’s pretty normal is that you just like wouldn’t say much about it, just like a couple of words, because people don’t really know what to say and how to support you. And I just felt like IfRFA was really supportive with everything that was going on, because I felt like it was hard to work, like it was hard to concentrate when you see the world like burning down outside your house. And so I just – yeah, IfRFA’s been a super supportive environment, which is not usually what you see from law school spaces.

Like I feel like law is just like let’s take everything out of you 39:29 - and IfRFA is like, let’s feed in to you, let’s make sure you’re okay, and like it’s okay to not be okay. And so I really appreciated that is just being around like-minded people who cared about our well being. >> Kendra Albert: Yeah. I feel like if there were emojis there would be – I could put the emojis, I could put hearts over my head. Thank you, Korica, thank you for sharing that. Jafet, do you have sort of any thoughts? >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: I think as Korica said, it was a great environment. Like they – it seems like you care a lot about us.

And I think that’s unique about all the things I have worked with and specifically in the moments we were living in the summer. So I think it was great. >> Kendra Albert: I do care about you, I do. Okay. All right. Enough of the water works. Yes, thank you both. And I think, you know, like as I think about sort of IfRFA, I do think also the way in which – I think actually this brings me to sort of the next question someone asked, which is like I think the way in which we very much explicitly built the program to be very small was something that we thought a lot about internally, because like often when you’re doing sort of programming of this kind, it’s like oh, how many people can we get in, like how big can it be. And we had always gone in with a vision that IfRFA was going to be a really small program. We initially were going to take four fellows and you all were so impressive that we had to take five.

And so I feel really lucky that we were able to create that kind of space where folks felt they could sort of individually, like, you know, cared for and paid attention to, in part I think because we were able to sort of have it be a smaller program that wasn’t like, oh, gosh, like it’s 30 people in a room and this is one more – you know, 41:57 - especially as things went remote in the spring for lots of students, oh, great, this is one more 30-person Zoom room, you know, Zoom University School of Law. Yeah. So I guess that’s my reflection on the question. Becca asked, so how do you think some of the special such unique experiences from IfRFA might scale or be incorporated into other teaching or working environments slash forums? I certainly have thoughts on this, but I would love to hear from y’all first about whether you think there’s things that might be sort of workable in other places in your, like, law school career or other working environments. >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: I would like to start with that one. And for the clinic work, I mentioned before that I have to do this meeting with the client, like that type of work made me more confident at public speaking. So I am right now the spokesperson for intellectual property pro bono program in my law school.

And that, like, since that moment like I started talking more 42:56 - and it made me more confident. I don’t know how that worked, but it worked. >> Korica Simon: This is a good question. Well, I think about how we talked a lot about like professionalism and dealing with work places, dealing with like workplace issues, and so we would – we had a couple of weeks where we met and we talked about like different dynamics at work and how to deal with those issues. And you just don’t get that in law school. Like no one comes to us and tells us, this is how you deal with this situation. The most you get from law school is like you don’t want to burn bridges and like that’s all they tell you.

And so I think law schools could do a better job at just like teaching law students how to deal with these issues, especially like 44:36 - because I’m at Cornell, I think law school should incorporate this more. I think in terms of the clinic, yeah, like Jafet said, like giving people more opportunities to get comfortable with public speaking. Like I had to speak at meetings and discuss what I was working on and that helped me grow and I think that could be something that also could be implemented in other clinics or other spaces, you know. >> Kendra Albert: Yeah. I love both of those points, so the point sort of about creating opportunities for students to really take the lead and try things, and like speak in public. And yeah, I think, Korica, I really appreciate your point about sort of like how there aren’t lots of opportunities in law school or often in any sort of – in lots of professional spaces to talk realistically about how do you deal with, like, moments of like where, you know, someone’s being racist in a workplace or where someone is behaving inappropriately, even though like inevitably lawyers are going to have that, it’s like this is actually a reality of practice, it’s like you’re going to encounter moments when people are not behaving appropriately. So thank you for sharing.

46:03 - I was going to answer it, but I love the next question so much and I’m so curious to see you all’s answers to this, so Jeff asks, and notes that he always feels bad asking this question to actual job interviewees, so we’re going to ask you y’all instead. In what kinds of settings do you see yourself practicing law in your ideal career and what’s your dream job. I will note that I think if anyone wants to offer either Korica or Jafet their dream job after this, like you can absolutely reach out to me and I would be happy to connect you directly. But, yeah, I’d love to hear about, like, what kinds of work would you love to do? Yeah, it’s a small question. If you want me to vamp for another like 30 seconds while y’all think of answers, I’m happy to do that.

47:17 - >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: I think I would like to do clinical work. I think it’s really – I have experiences in government courts or some big law firms, but I think clinical has been the best environment for working. Like they’re respectful. They – it’s unique. It’s a unique environment. I think, yeah, I would like clinical. And if it could be related to First Amendment or privacy law, intellectual property that I really enjoyed in my personal time, but I think, yeah, I’d like to do clinical work in all those areas, I would be more than happy. >> Korica Simon: Yeah. My dream job, so obviously I want to do government surveillance and First Amendment work. And I think – I think, so I’ve been doing the – I did the movement lawyering practicum this past semester and basically Movement Lawyering is about putting power into communities and not thinking about as lawyers, like, we have all the answers and we know what communities need, but letting the community guide you on what they need and you figuring out how to get that.

And so my dream job is basically working with communities. It doesn’t necessarily look purely legal. I think there’s a lot of times the law is not the answer. And so I think for me, I just want to work with communities and figure out how to make their lives easier, like how can I support them, what do they need from us, since, for better or for worse, people do look at lawyers as having, like, all of the status, and so what can I do with the status that I have to help these communities. And so, yeah, my dream job is basically working with communities on government surveillance issues and how to prevent that from happening. I don’t know what setting that is in. I’m guessing probably like a nonprofit or a clinic space. But, yeah, dream job. >> Kendra Albert: Amazing.

Well, thank you so much to both of you for sharing. So we’re nearing the end of our time together. So, you know, I’d love – you know, yeah, Jafet, Korica, thank you so much for coming and chatting about this and, you know, sharing some of those sort of your personal experiences, your experiences with IfRFA, with law school and the law more generally. I’m really grateful for that. I’m wondering if either of you have any sort of last words or last things you want to share given what we’ve talked about today. And this is like, you don’t have to, I’m just asking. >> Korica Simon: Yeah. I feel like I might just be repeating myself, but I really enjoyed my time with IfRFA.

I also remember interviewing with Kendra and thinking that, like, but this just ended like after the summer and I would never, like, hear from everyone again and I’m very grateful that that is not the case and that we’re all still connected. Because I think that’s sometimes how internships feel, like it ends and then that’s over, and then maybe once a year you check in, but that’s not been the case with IfRFA. But yeah, I really enjoyed my time. I think it’s a great way to see if First Amendment is the space that you want to go into. For me, I was just kind of exploring and I’m very grateful that I figured out that this was in the area that I wanted to focus my career on. >> Kendra Albert: Korica, I’m so glad you said that because, yeah, I do think that it’s important to emphasize that y’all are not rid of me, as I keep telling you.

And I’m really excited, actually, to sort of build connections across between y’all and the cohort that we’re currently recruiting for and will be incoming in the spring. And I don’t know, even just imagining hopefully a couple of years from now when there’s many generations of IfRFA folks that are either, either whether working in First Amendment spaces or not, I feel like it’s inevitable that at some point an IfRFA cohort, an IfRFA cohort member is just like I’m giving up on the law and I’m going to farm goats for a living or something, and we’ll all get to enjoy delicious goat cheese from that IfRFA cohort member. But basically really excited to build that community independent of where our folks end up. How did we end up talking about goat cheese, I have no idea. All right. Jafet, please save me from myself, any last words or last thoughts? >> Jafet Martinez-Molina: I was like testing waters with my First Amendment interests and I really liked it.

So since this summer I’ve been working for getting better at a wide variety of First Amendment issues. So I think if you are considering First Amendment, you should consider IfRFA. It’s just a top option. >> Kendra Albert: Oh, y’all are great. Thank you so much. And yes, thank you to our fantastic ASL interpreters, Shannon and Nora and to our CART captioner, Nancy, and to the events team members at Berkman Klein who hosted this, Lance, Rubin and Megan, and to Sybil and Jasjot, my incredible IfRFA colleagues, without who none of this would be possible, to be entirely frank. Thank you so much everybody. I appreciate you making the time and thanks for coming, to all of our attendees. .