MIT Bitcoin Expo 2021: The New Normal - What Bitcoin Did @ the Expo Part 2

00:03 - Hi. Hello. Hi. Hello.

00:07 - Lisa how are you? Hey, Peter. I’m doing great.

00:10 - How are you? I’m good. We were live there for a few seconds and I didn’t even realize it.

00:16 - Are you in a broom cupboard? I am. Yeah.

00:19 - Kind of like Harry Potter, how he lived under the stairs.

00:23 - It’s a closet. It’s nice because there’s no light that gets in from the outside so I don’t know what time of day it is in here.

00:32 - You haven’t been in there for days, right? You actually– you must be aware of [INAUDIBLE] the time.

00:38 - I’m sorry? You haven’t been in there for a few days, right? You do understand it’s the morning.

00:43 - Right. Yeah. No, it’s the morning.

00:44 - That’s right, yes. OK. Well look, good to see you again.

00:49 - We’re going to talk about Lightning, OK. We’re going to tell people about what’s going on with Lightning, where we’re at with it.

00:56 - Talk about how taproot activation relates to it.

00:58 - You’re going to handhold me through the more technical bits which I really appreciate.

01:03 - But how have you been? Are you well? I’m doing great, yeah.

01:06 - I’m very well. Yeah. Doing pretty good here in Texas.

01:10 - Yeah. Weather’s been real great. It’s nice.

01:12 - Yeah, we’ve got good weather here for a rare time here.

01:16 - So listen, let’s start with– just let people know a bit about yourself, how you got into being a Lightning developer.

01:23 - Yeah, as I got into Bitcoin– I’m going to get this wrong here and probably, honestly, 2018– I started with the Square’s Cash App team working on their back end so I was doing, basically, custodial Bitcoin, wallet coding, it’s all in JAVA there.

01:43 - And then got really interested in kind of– I got interested in some random thing and ended up emailing Rusty Russell of c-lightning.

01:54 - Didn’t really know much about Lightning at the time, but was kind of asking him a different question about like a thing in– like how a thing in like the Bitcoin protocol worked, and he mentioned that Blockstream was trying to hire for a c-lightning job and was curious if I was interested in applying.

02:10 - And I sent him several messages back that were like, look man I just started this job at Square, I don’t know anything about c or anything about Lightning.

02:18 - I really don’t think I’m the person you’re looking for, but since you seem interested, I will definitely– I would be happy to apply.

02:26 - It’s an application process. I will through the application process and then give you the courtesy of telling me no.

02:33 - And they didn’t tell me no so that’s how I got hired to work on Lightning at Blockstream as no one told me no.

02:39 - No one told you no. Well, awesome. And what is it specifically you’ve been working on with regard to Lightning? Yeah, so the project I’ve been working on for the past, I guess, couple of years at this point has been changing the spark to add the ability to duel fund the Lightning channel at open.

02:59 - What does that mean? I’m sorry? What does that mean? Yeah, what does that mean? What does a duel funded channel mean? Could you– sorry.

03:08 - Could you just repeat that? Sorry. You said you’ve been working on the ability to duel fund a channel.

03:15 - Yeah, so that has to do with how Lightning– do we want to get into how Lightning works right now? Let’s do it.

03:20 - OK. Go for it. Yeah, so right now– for those of you familiar with Lightning, you open channels between two nodes and then once a channel is open you can send funds between– that kind of creates this pathway– personal pathway that two nodes can then exchange funds.

03:38 - Right now the way that the protocol is written– and a protocol is basically just kind of step back a second when you say protocol what am I talking about.

03:47 - It’s a set of canned messages. It’s basically like having programmatic or automatic text set up, so when you’re like hey, I want to do xyz thing.

03:56 - I want to open a channel. There’s a canned set of messages that you pull out and then those are the messages that the two nodes send back and forth to each other and once that canned message conversation is done– it’s two robots talking and you write out what each of the robots is going to say back and forth and at the end of it you have everything you need to open a channel, which in Lightning’s case– what does it mean to open a channel– It means that you have a transaction or you have a transaction and one of those outputs locks is a two of two output with money from one of the nodes.

04:32 - So that’s opening a channel is broadcasting a transaction with a special output.

04:36 - So you have the– so anyways– started– so when you’re opening a channel you start a conversation with another node, it’s a canned conversation, and at the end of the canned conversation one of you broadcasts a funding– a transaction with an output in it.

04:49 - Cool. OK so right now the way that canned conversation works, only one of the nodes can put money into that transaction.

04:56 - Only one of the nodes builds that transaction that you end up broadcasting that’s the funding transaction for the channel, kind of starts the whole ability to have lightning payments.

05:06 - So my project has been taking that canned conversation that these two robotic nodes have with each other and changing the conversation.

05:14 - So we’re rewriting the script for how these nodes talk to each other.

05:19 - And then what we’re– the goal of rewriting the script– why would you sit down and rewrite the script– the goal of rewriting the script is that at the end of it instead of one node adding funds to the channel at the beginning both nodes would be able to put money into the channel.

05:35 - So kind of what this means is they’re collaboratively building a transaction and at the end of it you end up with a transaction that has inputs and outputs that belong to both nodes, and in addition to that, you also have the special output that just so happens to open a channel.

05:51 - So what’s cool about that is that currently any channel that you open at lightning, any channel, only has funds for one party at the very start.

06:01 - So if you want to send money in the other direction, you’re out of luck.

06:05 - You can’t do it. Duel funded channels, if you go through this process of building the transaction together, means that both channels, both sides have the opportunity to start with funds in the channel so it’s more balanced to begin with so payments can flow both directions just out of the gate which is really exciting.

06:22 - Is it one of those things whereby I as just a standard user won’t know what’s going on? This is just stuff you built in the background to make it all easier for you developers and so money can flow better, and I’ve got no idea what’s going on.

06:36 - That’s pretty much right. Brilliant.

06:39 - Yeah, exactly. Like I said, they’re canned conversations between two robots and if the conversation works out the way that it is at the end of the day, you end up with an open channel if you’re lucky, or hopefully it’s got money in both directions so people can send you money and you can send out money all on the same channel and it was just the same normal opening process that you normally go through.

06:59 - OK, great. So what is the general status of Lightning at the moment? We hear lots of different things.

07:06 - It’s still very early, it’s still beta you should still treat it like cautiously don’t put any money in it that you don’t want to lose, but be a little bit reckless.

07:15 - Like where are we right now with Lightning? Yeah, I’m going to be honest.

07:18 - I hate this question. I know, but I love asking it.

07:21 - Yeah. I hate it and the reason I hate it is like ready for who? Who are we talking about? Me.

07:30 - For you? Is it ready for Peter? 204 00:07:29,373 –> 00:07:30,540 This is like– I’m kind of– I want to be like I don’t know Peter like are you ready for Lightning? I think I am.

07:41 - Well, OK. So I think stuff like– so I think kind of like if you look at stuff like Strike– so I think strike– which is the wallet that’s made by I think– Jack Mallers –Jack Mallers.

07:54 - I always want to call him Zach because his first thing was Zap and so it’s– I think we also have to mention Rockstar Dev as well.

08:00 - He’s been heavily involved. And Rockstar Dev.

08:03 - It’s a collaborative project, anyways, but I think the thing about– so the thing about Strike and the reason I bring it up when people are like is Lightning ready is because I think Strike is doing the right thing for– I’m going to– I don’t really know you that well, Peter, so I hate to make assumptions but I’m going to assume for people like yourself– in that it uses Lightning as a payments rail.

08:24 - It makes it possible to send payments really quickly and fast but it hides the whole part about how they’re getting sent and who is managing the money and how it got from point A to point B. All you know is that you’re able to send payments around the globe very quickly, right, which I think is kind of one of the promises that lightning makes and as far as the fact that Strike exists and you can use it today, I think that Lightning is ready for that because it exists, right.

08:54 - So I think– so then you can end up on a spectrum of OK are we ready for people to build consumer-grade projects that use Lightning network, it seems like Strike already exists and is doing that so to some extent I’m like yes that seems like a thing that it’s reasonable to expect on the Lightning network these days.

09:15 - 247 00:09:13,350 –> 00:09:17,850 But the– what do you call it– but then I think I don’t know if that’s exactly what you mean like is Lightning ready or– I think of what I mean is like I have no fears of using the base chain, so if I was like off the session, I’m like, well, Lisa’s so cool, I’m going to send her a Bitcoin.

09:37 - I’ll be like Lisa give me address I’ll send you a Bitcoin.

09:39 - I’ve got no fear, no worries. I don’t think, I just know it’s going to get to you.

09:43 - But if I was like I’ve got a Bitcoin in my Lightning wallet I was like I’m going to send it to Lisa, I’m not sure it’d get there.

09:50 - I’m not sure I could send that much. I’m not sure if things could go wrong.

09:55 - That’s what I mean. I’m just I have that 100% confidence in the base chain, but with Lightning there’s like a little bit of doubt.

10:04 - There is doubt, yep. And that’s great.

10:06 - And maybe we should talk about why there’s doubt, right.

10:08 - Yeah Yeah, and I think– so I think there’s a couple of reasons why there’s doubt.

10:13 - I think one, the first reason is that a lot of the– I think Lightning is fairly complicated as a payment rail, kind of like I was talking about, kind of have to make sure balances are in the right ways so you can send money and if they’re not in the right way or you don’t have enough capacity through the network, it’ll fail.

10:30 - Part of the problem is the lightning just in general is that we have kind of have no idea right now if a payment will succeed until we try it.

10:38 - So until you walk up, and you push the button, and say, hey, I want to send one Bitcoin to Lisa please figure out how to do that, the network doesn’t know if that’s possible until it tries.

10:49 - So that is like– that introduces a certain amount of failure because we don’t– you can’t know until you try it sort of thing is great for I think a certain amount of science but with payments people want zero question to whether or not this payment is going to go through, right.

11:07 - It’s just like I want to walk up to the ATM or whatever, and push the button, and have the money come out or go in, and I don’t want to have to ever think about it, right.

11:17 - It’s kind of like the thing. So I think that to a certain extent getting Lightning to a point where every payment that you make always goes through every time is going to require a little bit more infrastructure and that’s going to look a little bit– and by infrastructure I don’t mean necessarily on the base level.

11:39 - I don’t think that’s something we can ever really get rid of in the protocol, at the protocol level because in order to do that it trades off.

11:46 - The trade off that you’re looking at there is privacy or reliability, right.

11:52 - So because we’ve given people a lot of privacy we can’t guarantee reliability and I think at the base level that’s not going to change.

12:04 - Unfortunately what that means to some extent is there’s almost like this little middle layer that’s, I wouldn’t say missing, that hasn’t been totally solved yet, is how to figure out a way to keep track of the network or something or have enough of your own like, I don’t know if trusted, but routes that you know and manage that always work, that allows some third party to patch that gap– I don’t know if patch that gap’s the right word– but like sort of abstract over the unpredictability of the underlying network in such a way that you as a user don’t ever see it.

12:45 - And we’ve had some I think really good progress towards making this more of the reality with MPP which is multi-part payments.

12:56 - So this means– it used to be there had to be a single path of like one Bitcoin.

13:00 - If you wanted to send me a Bitcoin we needed a single path that had the entire Bitcoin available along the whole way.

13:06 - MVP allows us to instead of having– maybe you don’t have one whole Bitcoin as a whole path but you have four paths and each of them has a quarter of a Bitcoin, I can send a quarter of a Bitcoin through four different paths at the same time.

13:20 - So MVP gives us that. So the main issue is the liquidity through the channels.

13:28 - Could you repeat that. I’m really sorry.

13:30 - That’s OK. So the main issue. The main reason a transaction might fail is there’s not enough liquidity through the channels That’s right.

13:38 - But that will improve with time, right? As more people go onto the network.

13:42 - I think it’ll improve with time. I think it’ll improve as things like this duel funding proposal channels start opening with more capacity in both directions, which means that at start you can send payments a lot more places.

13:56 - I think also stuff such as slicing will help a lot.

13:59 - I think that– so this is kind of like the problem like the general umbrella of liquidity management as a problem, right.

14:07 - And I think that is something that’s an active place that tools are being developed.

14:12 - Like lightning pool is, I think, pretty good for that also because it allows people who care about managing their liquidity the opportunity to go and source it in kind of a marketplace sort of thing.

14:23 - So I think we’re still– and that just launched in November.

14:26 - I mean that’s, I guess, that’s like five months ago at this point but it’s still really new.

14:30 - So I think we’re– [INTERPOSING VOICES] Do you want to explain what lightning pool is so people understand.

14:35 - Yeah. I can understand– yeah I can totally explain it.

14:38 - So the general idea with Lightning pool is that you have– again so this goes back to the problem of liquidity.

14:47 - When I open a channel all of my funds on one side and if I wanted to send payments in the other direction you’re just out of luck.

14:55 - So the idea was Lightning pool is that– oh and so it’s really hard if you’re a node, all you can do is open channels to other people.

15:03 - So if you’re a node operator it’s really easy to open channels to other people and be able to send payments out.

15:10 - It’s hard to convince someone else to open a channel to you with money in it, right.

15:15 - So this is a general problem that we’re trying to solve with pool.

15:18 - So pool is basically a way– if I’m a node and I want channels sending money in my direction.

15:26 - I want people to open channels to me with money on their side already so that people who aren’t me can send money through them to get to me, right.

15:35 - So pool is basically it creates a marketplace and it’s got a nice auction mechanism that allows people to establish a price that they’re willing to open a channel to me putting money, basically committing funds, in my direction so I can get payments into me.

15:54 - So basically this allows– a node in the past so like I said, I can control pretty easily the money going out.

16:00 - It’s harder for me to get money coming back in, so pool gives me a place that I can go to a marketplace and bid basically on people to create channels to me for different amounts of stuff.

16:12 - And they’ve done a nice job of building contracts kind of like in the options market place.

16:19 - So I recently got into like how options work in the stock market.

16:24 - One of the really– one of the really nice things that makes the options market possible is that they’ve standardized the contract.

16:33 - So every options contract for equities, which is stocks, is about 100 pieces of that, 100 shares, right.

16:40 - So when you buy one options contract it’s always 100 shares.

16:44 - There’s only a certain number of dates that those options can expire on and those are kind of set by– I’m not really sure who those are step by, but basically when you’re buying and selling a contract for options they’re standardized contracts.

16:57 - Lightning pool has done a similar thing for this– is we call it inbound liquidity– so by creating a marketplace and an auction they also have like, OK, I’m going to buy– and I can’t remember how many blocks it’s for.

17:10 - I’m going to guess. I’m guessing here.

17:11 - I think it’s like 4,000 blocks– so the person who’s you’re paying them to open this channel with you and put let’s say one Bitcoin in it– so one Bitcoin inbound liquidity– and that contract that you pay them for is like 4,000 blocks or whatever.

17:30 - Right. How does taproot change things for Lightning? Obviously I’ve been talking to Andrew about that about the activation the drama that’s been involved in that.

17:38 - Is there a lot of extra side work that has to be done within the Lightning protocol to– which has to be built alongside taproot because I’m not sure if taproot like screws things up for Lightning.

17:52 - Obviously, I’m not developer so I don’t know.

17:55 - What’s the deal there? Yeah. So taproot.

17:58 - Taproot is a big opportunity for Lightning to become more private and better hide the fact that you’re using Lightning in the Bitcoin blockchain.

18:12 - I think there’s other big things that we’re going to get by adopting Schnorr signatures which isn’t necessarily taproot and it’s not really related to the main chain, but for reasons related to just kind of wanting to be standardized around whatever it is that the taproot stuff adopts, we’ve been waiting until that landed until we update some of our other stuff, like other signature stuff, which isn’t necessarily related to the Bitcoin blockchain but we’ll use some of those same primitives and Schnorr signatures for example to make certain kinds of gossip stuff a lot more compact and easy to verify.

18:51 - That sort of thing. But like I can talk more about the privacy implications of taproot– Please do, yeah.

18:58 - –why it’s OK. Yeah so I think there’s two things that I’m aware of– and I’m sure there’s more that I’m missing– but I think there’s two big things that are pretty exciting about taproot for Lightning.

19:10 - The first one is that right now when you make a Lightning transaction, like the open transaction that creates this two of two output and goes on chain to open a channel, right now when that channel closes you have to publish the script that originally opened it, if that makes sense.

19:34 - This is how P2WSH works. So right now after that we’ve closed the channel, anyone can go through and see what we’re Lightning channels and it’s very easy to figure that out based on chain, just like footprint of them.

19:47 - Taproot, tapscript– I’m not really sure what the right word for it is– will allow you to hide that fact because with taproot or tapscript a lot of what ends up on chain looks like any other signature.

20:01 - So instead of looking like– so right now like Lightning outputs are fairly complicated script.

20:07 - They’ve got a decent amount of logic in them.

20:09 - Actually smart contracts on Bitcoin is like Lightning.

20:13 - So these are like you can see the logic of the script is when the channel closes.

20:19 - When we move to tapscript it will just look like any other normal signature signed transaction.

20:25 - So it had like– it had like a pub and private key.

20:30 - It just looks like a pub key private key signature thing normally.

20:33 - So I think that’s pretty cool. So on chain footprint will hopefully largely disappear so it’ll just look like normal chain transactions.

20:42 - You won’t be able to tell if someone’s opening or closing Lightning transaction.

20:46 - That’s the first part. The second thing I mentioned about– so the second thing that’s pretty cool has to do with the way that funds are moved through Lightning, like from Lightning node to Lightning node.

21:00 - So when you pass a little onion ball down the Lightning– little onion– when you pass a little onions down the channel stuff to make a payment that basically involves updating a bunch of transactions along the way so there’s a bunch of little Bitcoin transactions that get changed and updated between each of the little hops as the onion rolls through all the nodes to get to its destination.

21:25 - There’s little Bitcoin transactions getting updated at every spot, right.

21:30 - So those transactions very rarely end up on chain.

21:33 - You don’t want them to end up on chain, whatever.

21:36 - So it’s not really– anyways. But one of the cool things is right now when your little onion ball hops from like node, to node, to node through all the channels to like ends up at the last place and drop off the pavement.

21:48 - As it rolls through at each hub there’s something called– leaves something called a hash.

21:54 - So it’s that HTLC is hash time lock contract, I think– hash time lock contract– yeah.

21:59 - So the idea is that you’ll be able to move– so hash basically that hash is the same at every little node.

22:05 - So every little jump from channel to channel when the transactions changeover at each spot, each of them is the same hash right now.

22:12 - So if someone for some reason was able to see each of these changes they would be able to track where a payment is going.

22:19 - As it’s very hard to do. I don’t even think it’s like, I can’t think of a way that’s technically possible but if for some reason all of these channels ended up needing to go to chain all at the same time because of some terrible event then people would be able to see where your payment had gone if for some reason they go to chain or whatever.

22:39 - Schnorr taproot stuff lets us move to something called PTLC is my understanding.

22:43 - I think there’s other ways to accomplish this that people are working on but I think that tapscript makes it very easy is that it lets you– so the P stands for point time lock contract.

22:54 - Instead of hash we’re moving to a point. So instead of using a hash to unlock each of the things each way– sorry– each individual little hub in the path can use a unocorralatable, very distinct point.

23:15 - So each of these sections, instead of being able to tie them all together because they have the same piece of data between each one, now each of them will have its very own separate little point that they’re using at each hub.

23:28 - So you won’t be able to tell if for some reason all of these ended up on chain, there’s no way to look at everything that’s on chain and say, oh, these were the same payment because they’re using a different point instead of the same hash.

23:40 - OK. I think it’s also like Schnorr thing.

23:43 - Are there any other benefits that Lightning network will be gaining from taproot outside of privacy? Outside of privacy? I think it’s like– I think there’s certain savings and I’m not the right person to ask this exactly.

23:59 - I think other people can give you better answers.

24:02 - Based on what I’ve heard I think there’s certain– there’s some amount of space savings somewhere maybe, but I’m totally talking off the cuff here.

24:10 - That’s fine. I’ve got some questions from people coming in.

24:13 - So I’m going to read those to you as well. OK.

24:16 - Is there any missing feature in Bitcoin core that would help Lightning development evolution? This is a good question and it’s not something I’ve, again, kept up with.

24:26 - I think the thing that one of my teammates, Christian Tucker, talks about or what I think of when I think of this as like the– we’re still– I don’t know if waiting is the right word– but looking to get the I think it’s the script SIG– SIGHAS– no input.

24:44 - I think it’s been renamed something else. So basically there’s a proposal for something called L2 Enlightening.

24:52 - This will change the way that punishment works.

24:55 - So it basically has to do with how much backups do you need to save for your Lightning node and kind of solve some of the problems that Lightning nodes have around– you can’t lose any information ever, right now.

25:08 - So this is like– so the problem it’s trying to solve is that Lightning nodes have to remember a lot of stuff and if you lose that stuff you could lose all of your money in Lightning channels possibly.

25:18 - So anyways. But this like adding this certain SIGHASH flag to the core will let us upgrade the mechanism we use for commitment transactions such that– what do you call it commitment transactions– such that the state that you save can be compacted a lot.

25:39 - So it’s a lot less stuff and if you, for some reason, your hard drive gets corrupt and you lose your Lightning database, your recovery from a backup isn’t as devastatingly bad in terms of monetary loss.

25:55 - In terms of a Lightning node– because I’ve recently– I know it’s late and I get a lot at stick for this, but I’ve recently finally got myself my node fully synced– and my basic understanding of how it works is it sort of downloads the blockchain and the blockchain itself is what, 350 gigabytes, but I think of it in terms of blocks.

26:17 - So in terms of Lightning in my lightning node, what do I think of in terms of the data that’s storing because it can’t be in terms of blocks.

26:24 - It must be in terms of something else. That’s a good question.

26:28 - It depends on what your node is doing. The thing is– Does it have the whole state? 636 00:26:32,800 –> 00:26:35,470 So there’s like– for every channel that you have open right now it has to save at least one– I have to save basically a Bitcoin transaction.

26:49 - So the data that a Bitcoin transaction is composed of, which is like bytes, right, like hundreds of bytes.

26:55 - Yeah. It’s on the order of hundreds of bytes for a channel.

26:59 - I think is that right? I think there’s some other metadata you might need to keep in terms of keys, which key you’ve used for that channel for example to unlock things.

27:08 - You also have to save– so you have to save, it’s on the order of like maybe a kilobyte.

27:13 - I’m going to get that wrong and someone else is going to say Lisa that’s terribly wrong and here’s why and here’s all the extra data that you have to keep also, but from a state perspective you have to keep– you have to keep the current transaction and you really also want to keep– based on the current way that stuff works– you also want to keep this kind of a list of revocation keys that your peers have given you.

27:36 - But that’s– I don’t know how big a key is, like 33 bytes or so times however many times you’ve had that channel change.

27:44 - So it’s within like, I would say it’s in the kilobyte range per channel.

27:48 - So it’s on a channel basis. So you think about it on a how many channels do I have or have I had that I need to keep state around for.

27:55 - OK. OK. So we might have time for one, maybe two questions but we’ll go with one for now.

28:02 - What, who is the main competitor to Layer 2 Scanning in Bitcoin, if any, and what is the dev position overall on Lightning network in general.

28:10 - I think you’ve kind of answered to the second part already.

28:13 - OK. But what other competitors for Layer 2 Scanning is there? Yeah.

28:20 - I don’t know, let’s say wrap Bitcoin right you can do it on– [CHOKE] Yeah, so, I actually I gave a talk I think at some conference last year about Lightning and comparing it to liquid and– I hate saying liquid of course because then I feel like I’m shilling for blockstream but, yeah liquid of course.

28:44 - Kind of, not really. It really depends on what I do.

28:48 - I think that– so wait, are we talking about– and maybe like– so I think, when you talk about competitors Lightning, what are you talking about? Are you talking about with other– I think competitors the wrong word, really.

29:00 - I mean I’m reading their question says competitor but I’m just– I think there’s just multiple scaling options of which Wrapped Bitcoin is a scaling option.

29:08 - We can’t deny. Liquid is a scaling option.

29:11 - Lightning’s a scaling option. Are there ones that we should be aware of and yeah– And so I think a good way to think about so– sorry I’m kind of like a first principles person, so I want to talk about like– when you talk about– like so when you’re talking about competitors usually then you want to look at what’s like doing a similar thing.

29:29 - And the core thing that both liquid and Lightning and Wrapped Bitcoin all have in common is that they build pools of Bitcoin that are then kind of kept in multi-sig– they’re kept in multi-sig UTXOs on the main blockchain and then because you have that Bitcoin locked in that multi-sig UTXO thing, they build a second accounting layer that keeps track of who owns the money inside that Bitcoin pool, right.

29:55 - This is how any layer two stuff works, basically.

29:58 - Enlightening the accounting is these little Bitcoin transactions that you keep off chain and you trade back and forth.

30:04 - It’s kind of like Pokemon cards, whatever. The accounting system in liquid is a whole other blockchain, it’s a liquid blockchain.

30:12 - But it’s basically the accounting for liquid Bitcoin is just like who owns what portion of this locked pool that’s like a multi-state contract.

30:20 - Wrapped Bitcoin is the same thing except the accounting mechanism is on Ethereum, right.

30:27 - So I think when you’re looking at– when you’re looking at L2 things or you’re evaluating what do I think of this scaling option, it’s who are the most participants for that pool of Bitcoin that you’re creating? Do you trust them? Do how to get your money out of it? And two, the other thing then is like how what do you think of the accounting system? Is it a good accounting system? Does it seem like that accounting system will keep track of who, and what, and how much Bitcoin you are owed in that leg pool? So.

30:57 - Fair enough. Well, we’ve come to the end of our session.

31:00 - I’ve learned more. I learned more about Lightning since I did 35 minutes ago, so thank you Lisa.

31:06 - Hopefully we’ll have a chance to catch up soon.

31:09 - And, yeah. I think it’s now time for the morning break, but thank you for your time Lisa.

31:13 - Cool. Thank you. Awesome conversations.

31:18 - Awesome conversations. Very interested to know what’s coming on taproot and also these cool technical things on lightning network.

31:26 - Yeah. Thanks Peter, Lisa, and Andrew.

31:30 - We’re going to have a brief break and we will resume in 10 minutes.

31:34 - So take this opportunity to join us on this Court and also on [INAUDIBLE].

31:40 - We’ll be back at 11:00 AM. .